Expecting Rain

Everyone that's a member here is a fan of Bob Dylan. As such, if someone posts a youtube clip of a live Bob Dylan performance, everyone here should have the right to express their personal opinion of it.

I think this performance from Berlin doesn't sound that bad, in fact it's much better than I would have excepted. What's missing is only a decent guitar-player who is able to fill up some of the blank spaces of this arrangement.

Here is one version of this song I like very much, it's from 2006:
http://www.sendspace.com/file/tupetf

Let it be noted by moderators - et al - that I have been referred to here as 'a living tragedy'. By someone who has consistently responded to many of my posts in a very condemnatory and insulting manner.

Oh, that delicious ironing again.

To answer your points though, senor10 (can you please explain how you chose that username - I'm intrigued. There's no agenda - I'm always interested in why and how people choose their internet pseudonyms):

- I do not have 'nothing much to do'. Quite the opposite - I am sitting here at work with a huge pile of stuff to do, It is a very boring pile of stuff though, and this is preferable.

- You posit that 'a rational person who dislikes what he hears would simply give up criticising an artist he used to like and get a new hobby'.
You make a number of assumptions here that need questioning.
First of all, criticism in its technical sense can be both positive and negative. There is no weight given to either side of the scale, rather it confers the meaning that one is actively and consciously commenting upon the observed object. We are therefore actually all critics of Bob Dylan and his work in here.
Secondly, you imply that I somehow used to like Bob Dylan but now don't. Do you really understand what that means? Look - Bob Dylan as an artist exists at all times through his recorded output combined with our personl experience of his art. For most of us, the studio albums and bootlegs and youtube videos are the bulk of how we get our fix. The attending of concerts is minor to that, in terms of time actually spent pursuing this 'hobby' (your term - I find it pretty reductive myself). Now, here's the thing - Bob Dylan the person is of no real concern to me. I couldnt give a monkeys mostly who he is as a human being, what he does from day to day, what he wears, how he combs his hair etc. I have a deep appreciation for how he has lived parts of his life, and respect for elements of his character as gleaned through some books and my own observations etc. But thats all just the tiny tip of the iceberg (new album reference, folks!) of what keeps the guy beating in my mind. No - its the work he has produced that impacts on me, that constitutes my fascination, that absorbs my intellect and guts simultaneously. Do you understand? I'm talking about the 50 years of songs that he has recorded in the studio and performed live. I'm intimate with these - to a greater or lesser degree, of course, depending on which dates - because I have listened to them, absorbed them. I continue to do this, to keep myself up to date with the art the man is producing. Yes, I said art - even if I personally dislike something, I dont deny him the the right to call it art and himself an artist.
The logic of this is that you cannot with any grain of truth say that when i comment negatively on a performance of 'She Belongs To Me' from this week, that I am criticising an artist I used to like. Its a mix up of terminology that confuses issues rather than clarifies them. Instead, it would be much more accurate to say I am criticising negatively a piece of work by an artist whose past works I appreciate more. The tense is important here - there is no past tense in loving what Bob Dylan did in 1965 or 1976. It exists outside of time because technology allows me instant access, a front row seat, a spot at the mixing desk, whenever I choose. Do you get that? The constriction you deliberately employ in claiming I 'used to like' Bob Dylan is insulting and a fallacy. It misses the whole point.
The whole point being this: I am just as qualified as anybody here to comment on any performance from Bob Dylan that is put in front of me. This is a forum where a thread has been started inviting us to do just that. And, guess what? Because I have heard lots of other performances of this song before, my brain automatically places this new one in a hierarchy of quality. If it didn't, I'd just be a receiver with no filter or processing behind it. The stuff would pass through me and I'd have no purchase on it beyond the moment of response. There would be no experience behind judgement. Yes, experience behind judgement - I'll say it again, because it seems to me that one strand of argument against me and others saying they dislike a ModBob performance is that we are pissing on the parade of others who do enjoy it. To which I say this: when all I read is a stream of positive comments about everything, when the usual suspects line up in a thread to rave about how brilliant and on fire the band and singer are, just as they do for everything, it makes me imagine a dog in a car with its head out the window, its tongue lapping as it goes past. Its pure sensation without context, expressed emotion without evaluation. Am I jealous that there are some people here who can listen to anything - literally, any thing -that Bob Dylan does and declare it genius? Yep, of course - it must be nice to be that dog in that car. But while I'm envious of that ability to have no comparative judgement, the self-same lack of critical analysis and nailing colours to the mast of 'Yeah, ok, he did that, but he did it better here, and here, and over there etc' really gets my goat. I've thought about why, and I think it ultimately comes down to this: what does it mean for previous work if every new object has the same gushing praise heaped up on it? What, for example, does it qualitively mean to have a thread about 'Visions of Johanna' from Sheffield 1966 next to one about 'She Belongs To Me' from Germany 2012 and see them both fill up with the same words?

That’s what winds me up, I think – the fact that my own comparative judgement is only reflected by the views of a few here, not the majority. Not so much that others might vary in the degree of their negativity or positivity, but that really there is so little variance, such a blanket conformity of love.

And again I have asked myself what this lack of light and shade in certain sections of this forum might indicate; what is the underlying impulse that drives this shoaling of fish in one direction?

The only answer I can come up with is that there must be a lot of members of this forum for whom the person Bob Dylan and the art produced by him are inseparable. I definitely get the sense that their ‘hobby’ goes beyond just listening to the music in isolation – it seems that the music is almost secondary to the wider picture of love for the man. How else to explain the minutiae of descriptions about what his trousers look like, about being able to follow his plane journeys on a virtual map, about what he eats, his portable toilet habits, that weird and scary ‘Visions of Bob’ thread etc?

Fair enough, I guess – from that perspective, this place is no different to a, oh I dunno, a Matthew Mcconaughey fangasm/stalker site (not that I’ve checked, but I assume – shudder – that such places exist). That pappy celebrity thing, where the fourth estate tries to trick us into thinking we have more in common with complete strangers than we do our own families.

But thats not what I’m about, and what concerns me is that the love of this Bob Dylan bloke bleeds over and dominates and colours the love and appreciation of his art. The two are linked inexorably, for sure, and there is some value in context of creation, but in my aesthetic, you must at some point try and divorce the two if you are to get a good sense of what is important. Art must stand for itself, by itself. Roland Barthes’ ‘Death of the Author’ and all that debate implies.

If you look at what you wrote, Senor10:

The critical factor here is recognition of the inescapable fact that Dylan's vocal capabilities have declined dramatically. Anyone who pretends otherwise is a fool. The key question for each listener is do they still enjoy what they hear. If yes then carry on buying the records and attending the shows, if no, move on. Dylan is trying to fight against the passage of time. He won't win but he can try. The only fools in this parade are the people who castigate others who still get pleasure from Dylan's efforts.


This is again a confusing mix of messages. You can’t talk on the one hand about enjoying what you hear and on the other about Dylan fighting the ageing process and not have your thoughts on the latter influencing the former. This is common round here – there seems to be a compensatory respect for Dylan still being out there, still touring, still performing that is casting favourable light all over the appreciation of the work being done. I understand that - its like Dylan is Grandpa still trotting out his wartime songs at Christmas – a part of you groans, but is swamped by the fact that you love him, and so you applaud and feel warm inside. I sincerely think that for some here, Bob Dylan is another family member like that, that it is impossible for them to separate the songs from the person and from their feelings about that person.

Thus there are those who quite blatantly will go on record here as saying that as long as the old guy is still on a stage, they will go and see him. That somehow, the very fact of his still performing is in itself of value. Or, that they somehow ‘owe’ him that out of duty, for what he has given them.

I’m not so heartless I don’t see why that view might arise – we’re all in the same handcart heading to death, after all, and there is something profound in those who keep fighting to the last drop of life. And paying one’s respects to those who have influenced or contributed to one’s inner richness is a noble act.

It’s a complex equation, granted, this looking at art and the artist and disentangling the two. One one hand, you have the view echoed by de Kooning when he said "There's no way of looking at a work of art by itself. It's not self-evident—it needs a history, it needs a lot of talking about; it's part of a whole man's life."

Against which I would argue that ultimately, Art cannot be anything but self-evident. By its very expression, it exists outside of its creator and is something else entirely. That ‘She Belongs To Me’ is not Bob Dylan, its not those musicians, its not the smartphone it’s captured on, the screen that presents it to you, the speakers that play the music. It has its own legs, and it moves independently. How you interpret the sensory data it provides you with though - that is your issue and yours alone.

So here it is – I can see others’ stance being valid for them, but at the same time I also completely disagree and defend my right to do that. I’ll call you an idiot in your thread, if you call me one in mine. Deal?

Last word goes to a song lyric:

She reads too many books
She got new movies inside her head
She reads too many books
She got movies inside her head
She wants me to walk out running
She wants me to crawl back dead
You need a different kinda man, babe
One that can grab and hold your heart
Need a different kind of man, babe
One that can hold and grab your heart
You need a different kind of man, babe
You need Napoleon Boneeparte
- Hero Blues

Great post, Benny.

I accept everything you said there Benny and I defend your right to say it. As stated in my original post I hear the decline in Dylan's voice and I watch him struggling to find new ways to get through a performance. I saw him twice in Melbourne last year and I know people that walked out and others that loved it. In some ways he was a shadow of his former self, in another way I admired his determination. Overall the crowd responded positively. Most people admire Dylan as a songwriter. Ironically, I think that performing may mean more to him right now than anything else.

I chose the name Senor 10 because Senor was already taken. I can't even recall why I picked that particular name, probably just played that song. Anyway you are content to continue venting your brand of displeasure, while others enjoy performances you dislike. I have actually agreed with you on a couple of occasions which you obviously overlooked. I am tired of the continuing jousting over what one should like or dislike. I see Dylan as someone who is not to proud to try to confront his decline. He is better at it than many of his fans. I will exit stage left, the alternative is repetition of the same old arguments. If I hung around I would become what I accused you of being. I'm content with browsing from now on. Good luck.

fantastic, ben. spot on.
man, long posts are the way to go; seriously. if everybody spent some real time (i dunno how long it took benny to write that, but i assume it was much longer than it would take to write a normal post) writing their thoughts into big considered pieces of writing which considered whatever issue was being discussed with that level of sensitivity, sophistication and sincerity there would be no problem.
this demonstrates that people can have different opinions and still get on. when posts are considered, in depth, and hell, just LONG, there is less opportunity for debates to degenerate into the kind of mud slinging that often gets resorted to by both sides (things like "bob sounds like a dead horse, how can any sane person like this" and "why do you come here if you're a bob hater")
intelligent, well-expressed posts inspire people to respond in kind. as such i put forward the proposition that everybody should make the effort to express themselves in this way.

benny- i was kind of having a tough time in life, but then i read your book, i feel like i am on the path to eventual perfection now- thanks man

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfAvPPmd ... playnext=1

Benny's post was thorough and expressed his overall thoughts very well. But...tellme...if every time a new Bob video was posted, and all who wanted to express an opinion on it wrote a half page...it would be even more tiresome than the mudslinging. So, if someone thinks a video is horrible, a short expression of that, is the only way to go. Although headway between the "camps" hopefully has been made, by the thorough explainations posted on this thread, regarding why specific behavior, is what it is. So...that's a big positive.

i respectfully disagree, though i understand that not everybody has the time or bothered-ness to write such long things.

I agree. I know a lot of thought and effort went into both posts (yours and Ben's). It means (to me, anyway) that both of you care enough about Bob (and us) to articulate your reasons for feeling the way you do most of the time.

Thanks again.

I propose a sliding scale of optimum post length based on subject.

Bob's trousers: 1 word maximum
1960s or 70s work: a whole server

My post here ^ was directed at tmm1966.

It's not just a matter of time...but is there a half page of critique worth writing on each Bob in performance video that is posted? I don't think so. You can only say so much about a specific video. As I stated above...I think headway has been made so that hopefully there's a better understanding of why some make the comments they do. And hopefully, that will prove to beneficial. Benny's post basically explains why he reacts the way he does, in general. You wouldn't want to apply that to each video.

o brother, is this another post about how wonderfully artsy fartsy it is to have your life revolve around-and i do mean revolve around the very thing they dislike the most.

goombay, please go fuck yourself. i've tried as hard as possible to get something of any substance out of you and it seems that it can't be done. so i repeat - go and fuck yourself.

true, however i reserve the right to critique their critique in any type of fashion. as far as the music thing goes, i personally dont thing batman and robin or anybody can tell me about the music thing, the idea is not only fantastic but ridiculous. i mean i got ten grand anytime they wanna come here without no google and engage in some musical poker,
incredible, to come onto a computer and tell people about what they should be listening. when in fact they seem to have no time to listen themselves.

Tellme...shouldn't lower yourself.

You are on to something there, tellmemomma, though as a person with a chaotic mind, organizing thoughts into long posts are very difficult. I think maybe the same sort of thing could be accomplished if people just seriously evaluate their words (especially when debating) to see if they are really adding to a discussion and think about how they could be perceived by others.

Sometimes posts can be both economical and effective. I'm not good at the long or the short

Thanks for the well articulated thoughts, Bennyboy.

you may be onto something, some humans aint humans like prine says. you know, calling bob a little 71 man with arthritis who is weak is considered high comedy here. its cute, you cant object. i dont know where these folks were raised or where they come from but from where i come from someone gets in my face and calls me or bob or any other of my peeps such a thing there would be a disturbance. and very little discussion about it.

see how they talk, they wanna get substance out of you like if this forum was about them not bob. so maybe you are right, all this is pointless this is really all about them not bob. i mean for gods sake i dont write high school term papers type posts for stuff i like much less for stuff i dont like. most folks back in the day viewed it that way but things musta have changed.

Not fair - you forgot to list Bob's hat (or lack thereof ) as a valid category.

Well...just watched the video of Bob doing Black Coat in Bonn, yesterday. It was pretty good. Even with the raspy bark...it was clear, and the song suits his current voice well. Enjoyed it.

Sorry, my post offering my thoughts on the song is so short

Thanks for the well articulated thoughts goombay

hey for you i got 20 000 grand should you wanna engage in some musical poker. no google tho, google makes the weak strong.
a little musical poker so you can show folks here what a true musicologist you are.

He's frustrated. I believe he's tried to make an honest effort to explain the complex feelings he has regarding Bob's live performances. His numerous requests for direct feedback have been ignored. Might was well talk to the wall.