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 Post subject: Re: Many lines in Chronicles are from Time Magazine
PostPosted: Fri July 31st, 2009, 15:02 GMT 

Joined: Wed January 28th, 2009, 18:55 GMT
Posts: 179
I don't know why it has to be acceptable just because it's Dylan. He isn't making some new kind of art, he's making the same kind of art that plagiarists have made throughout the ages: stolen art.

You can call it an acceptable method when it comes to songs because the juxtaposition is what makes the art. Dylan himself has said this is what Robert Johnson was doing, and it is, and I like it when he does it. If he steals lines wholesale here, I don't have a problem. Besides, ninety percent of what he's stolen is beyond copyright anyway (if you ignore the fact he's stealing translations, which belong to translators, which I'm willing to do for the moment).

In prose, it is something entirely different. To call Chronicles some kind of new prose collage is silly. The point of collage, again, is juxtaposition. There is no effect from juxtaposition in Chronicles. There is only effect from how piercing and poetic the lines are. These lines don't belong to Dylan. And they aren't from two-thousand-year-old dead poets. They are not applied in any new way. Perhaps this is the danger that comes with doing the other thing: sooner or later your ego gets away from you and you can't judge what is okay and what's not.

For the record, I still enjoy Chronicles. But I would enjoy my buddy's hi-fi system, too, even if it was stolen. That doesn't mean that ethically I agree with it. But I guess some of us don't care if the system's stolen, as long as it sounds good, and maybe I can't convince you.


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 Post subject: Re: Many lines in Chronicles are from Time Magazine
PostPosted: Fri July 31st, 2009, 15:12 GMT 

Joined: Sun September 21st, 2008, 15:03 GMT
Posts: 2891
Location: Bonnie Scotland
inthealley wrote:
I've found it hard to be bothered with this topic because it seems so STRANGE to hear of all this disappointent ...... 'I've been loving the work of Bob for so long and now (sob) I find out he's a cheat ..." This is RIDICULOUS.I LOVE Bob's borrowings and don't care in the least if others call them theft.

Somewhere in Don't Look Back, Bob says to the Nice Man from Time Magazine (in 1965, note) that 'the truth is like a collage' [forgive me, I quote from memory, but SOMEONE will have it off word-perfect ....). This says it all for me. I now take, as it pops out of my head, very much at random, one quote:

'Just got back from a city of powder blue skies
Everybody thinks with their stomach
There's plenty of spies
Every street is crooked, they just wind around till they disappear' .....

This seems to be transparently, to me, a borrowing, or a series of borrowing. (Knowing what a trickster Bob is, it will of course turn out to be nothing of the sort!!). I can just imagine Bob assembling these quotes in a big notebook, or on scraps of paper, and wondering where to fit them in .... In early songs, as the songwriting process is developing, Bob moves whole verses from one song to anothe, trying to find the right place for them, and this is true of stuff taken from old blues songs as well as his own stuff. Bob has always 'collaged'!!! And there are lots of examples of repeated passages around in several songs. The song Something's Got A Hold of My Heart', which I honestly picked randomly, is stuffed full of this kind of stuff, and so probably are others - it's all OVER in Bob's work. And there is so much of it that it must be obvious to everyone here that putting all these 'thefts' together must take about five time's as long as just writing new songs, and that Bob therefore does it deliberately. I could go on, if I could be bothered, but I'm not sure I can be ......... just accept, guys, that Bob is a bit cleverer than most of us, and that's why he must have delighted in stealing a book title, and naming an album 'Love and Theft. Look around in his interviews about creating and he will confirm this.

Amen.


LOOK, imagine if Keats "borrowed" from Shakespeare and Byron "borrowed" from Rimbaud and Rimbaud "borrowed" from Wordsworth and Blake "borrowed" from Byron and Wordsworth "borrowed" from Keats and Plath "borrowed" from Rimbaud (we are disregarding timelines of course) and the "borrowing" was mostly verbatim and incessant?

Hallelujah.


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 Post subject: Re: Many lines in Chronicles are from Time Magazine
PostPosted: Fri July 31st, 2009, 15:14 GMT 

Joined: Sun September 21st, 2008, 15:03 GMT
Posts: 2891
Location: Bonnie Scotland
clifford gage wrote:
Chronicles is beginning to look more and more like a real prose mosaic, much in the same way as songs on Modern Times and Love and Theft are poetry mosaics derived extensively from the work of Ovid and Virgil.

Dylan shouldn't really feel too embarassed about this at all. Much of Robert Burns best work, for example, were mosaics of lines taken from earlier Scottish ballads.

Actually, for Dylan to produce such an interesting book containing such a high level of mosaic material is a genuinely remarkable achievement


Except those earlier Scottish ballads had no author's name attached so were free to be utilised.


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 Post subject: Re: Many lines in Chronicles are from Time Magazine
PostPosted: Fri July 31st, 2009, 15:26 GMT 

Joined: Thu July 30th, 2009, 16:45 GMT
Posts: 2
i can't name a source, but i seem to remember that dylan said, as he was writing Chronicles, that he was drawing from his own memories as well as a number of other sources.

and we all know that he is a thief, perhaps the greatest thief in literature. he makes good use of his sources. (could the author of Confessions of a Yakuza ever have imagined the great Floater?)


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 Post subject: Re: Many lines in Chronicles are from Time Magazine
PostPosted: Fri July 31st, 2009, 15:28 GMT 

Joined: Fri March 2nd, 2007, 15:27 GMT
Posts: 3
Hi,
I think concerning this (and Bob´s work in general), we need to consider that Bob probably also is conversant with modern (and postmodern) literary theories such as those of French critic Roland Barthes. (Or if not consciously conversant, he is at least subconsciously part of the contemporary literary context, as every writer is.)
In his famous 1968 essay, "The Death of the Author", Barthes writes:

"We know now that a text is not a line of words releasing a single "theleological" meaning (the message of the Author-God) but a multi-dimensional space in which a variety of writings, none of them original, blend and clash.The text is a tissue of quotations drawn from innumerable centres of culture. [...] [The author´s] only power is to mix writings, to counter the ones with the others, in such a way as never to rest on any one of them. [...] Thus is revealed the total existence of writing: a text is made of multiple writings, drawn from many cultures and entering into mutual relations of dialogue, parody, contestation, but there is one place where this multiplicity is focused and that place is the reader, not, as was hitherto said, the author."

Chronicles is a modern (or postmodern if you will) text, since it is written in our time.


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 Post subject: Re: Many lines in Chronicles are from Time Magazine
PostPosted: Fri July 31st, 2009, 15:30 GMT 
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Joined: Sat February 17th, 2007, 01:50 GMT
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Location: Southern California
someone get him a 50's issue
& a 70's issue, and turn him loose.

I'm in the 'tell me anything' camp


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 Post subject: Re: Many lines in Chronicles are from Time Magazine
PostPosted: Fri July 31st, 2009, 15:41 GMT 
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That would mean the Times he is a-changin'.


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 Post subject: Re: Many lines in Chronicles are from Time Magazine
PostPosted: Fri July 31st, 2009, 16:13 GMT 

Joined: Thu June 30th, 2005, 19:52 GMT
Posts: 16
I think what he did with Love & Theft is brilliant...really...one his absolute best records...he took a Japanese Gangster novel and made it Americana...it is brilliant....he completely changed the context in which it was written....completely

He lost me at Modern Times...Rollin' & Tumblin' - I've had this discussion/argumemt on other boards and though it's not my intent to start it here...he stole that song !!! - He has no right claiming "All songs written by Bob Dylan" - none...

now maybe he bought the Muddy Waters catalog...and since he owns that he feels safe...but...even Cream or Canned Heat give credit to McKinley Morganfield/Muddy Waters for that song...(so please dont give me "the Muddy stole it too" argument - been there; done that)

...and now on Together Through Life he was sure to credit Willie Dixon for the same type of "lift"...careful not to be sued....


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 Post subject: Re: Many lines in Chronicles are from Time Magazine
PostPosted: Fri July 31st, 2009, 16:19 GMT 

Joined: Fri December 5th, 2008, 17:59 GMT
Posts: 24
Mister.Jones wrote:
That would mean the Times he is a-changin'.


:D


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 Post subject: Re: Many lines in Chronicles are from Time Magazine
PostPosted: Fri July 31st, 2009, 16:22 GMT 
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Joined: Fri September 26th, 2008, 19:42 GMT
Posts: 86
ocgypsy wrote:
someone get him a 50's issue
& a 70's issue, and turn him loose.


Well he was turned loose...he could have chosen any issue of Time magazine that he liked, and used it in Chronicles!

But why specifically the 31 March 1961 issue?? That's the question rattling in my head...I know what you're going to say..that's the one that was on his coffee table when he started typing his book..

And why Ovid's Tristia for Modern Times?

Those are intriguing questions..


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 Post subject: Re: Many lines in Chronicles are from Time Magazine
PostPosted: Fri July 31st, 2009, 16:30 GMT 

Joined: Wed April 13th, 2005, 15:09 GMT
Posts: 1993
Location: hangin around on the outskirts of town
mcapas wrote:
I think what he did with Love & Theft is brilliant...really...one his absolute best records...he took a Japanese Gangster novel and made it Americana...it is brilliant....he completely changed the context in which it was written....completely

He lost me at Modern Times...Rollin' & Tumblin' - I've had this discussion/argumemt on other boards and though it's not my intent to start it here...he stole that song !!! - He has no right claiming "All songs written by Bob Dylan" - none...

now maybe he bought the Muddy Waters catalog...and since he owns that he feels safe...but...even Cream or Canned Heat give credit to McKinley Morganfield/Muddy Waters for that song...(so please dont give me "the Muddy stole it too" argument - been there; done that)

...and now on Together Through Life he was sure to credit Willie Dixon for the same type of "lift"...careful not to be sued....


Muddy stole it too.


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 Post subject: Re: Many lines in Chronicles are from Time Magazine
PostPosted: Fri July 31st, 2009, 16:31 GMT 
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Joined: Thu November 4th, 2004, 19:54 GMT
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Many of the examples cited are blatant plagiarism, and Dylan and his publisher could be sued for not giving credit to Time Magazine. Plagiarism is not avoided by changing a few words--taking content from an uncredited copyrighted source is also an act of plagiarism. Laziness seems to be the issue for Dylan, here as in so many other areas, but his editors did not adequately fact check his manuscript.


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 Post subject: Re: Many lines in Chronicles are from Time Magazine
PostPosted: Fri July 31st, 2009, 16:34 GMT 

Joined: Wed April 13th, 2005, 15:09 GMT
Posts: 1993
Location: hangin around on the outskirts of town
lazy editors too.


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 Post subject: Re: Many lines in Chronicles are from Time Magazine
PostPosted: Fri July 31st, 2009, 16:35 GMT 
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Joined: Fri March 11th, 2005, 15:15 GMT
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Location: Albuquerque
There are still many more interesting puzzles in Chronicles yet to be revealed.

I've discovered that in one section of the book Dylan is employing techniques that he picked up from a step by step guide on how to become a successful cult leader.

I realize how bizarre that sounds, but I will present why I believe that this is so. It does show some great humor on Dylan's part. Dylan includes many direct phrases from and references to this guide (I'm still cross-referencing the two books so that I can present this in the strongest manner possible) and it perhaps sheds some light on what he might have been up to in a particularly perplexing portion of Chronicles.


Last edited by scottw on Fri July 31st, 2009, 16:36 GMT, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Many lines in Chronicles are from Time Magazine
PostPosted: Fri July 31st, 2009, 16:36 GMT 

Joined: Thu June 30th, 2005, 19:52 GMT
Posts: 16
jman wrote:
mcapas wrote:
I think what he did with Love & Theft is brilliant...really...one his absolute best records...he took a Japanese Gangster novel and made it Americana...it is brilliant....he completely changed the context in which it was written....completely

He lost me at Modern Times...Rollin' & Tumblin' - I've had this discussion/argumemt on other boards and though it's not my intent to start it here...he stole that song !!! - He has no right claiming "All songs written by Bob Dylan" - none...

now maybe he bought the Muddy Waters catalog...and since he owns that he feels safe...but...even Cream or Canned Heat give credit to McKinley Morganfield/Muddy Waters for that song...(so please dont give me "the Muddy stole it too" argument - been there; done that)

...and now on Together Through Life he was sure to credit Willie Dixon for the same type of "lift"...careful not to be sued....


Muddy stole it too.



hahaha


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 Post subject: Re: Many lines in Chronicles are from Time Magazine
PostPosted: Fri July 31st, 2009, 16:41 GMT 
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Location: The ants are my friends
Maybe Bob liked the cover ...

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/0,926 ... ernalid=AC

Interesting title of one article ... Song & Dance Man.

Another article .. How much is a nun paid? Didn't Bob do an entire album concerning that subject in the 1980s?


Last edited by Mister.Jones on Fri July 31st, 2009, 16:47 GMT, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Many lines in Chronicles are from Time Magazine
PostPosted: Fri July 31st, 2009, 16:47 GMT 

Joined: Wed January 28th, 2009, 18:55 GMT
Posts: 179
The detective work being done here is really interesting.

Also, I do realize that stealing content as well as wording is plagiarism, but I think if he'd only stolen the content and had reworded it or made the wording unrecognizable, nobody would know the difference. This is also a much more acceptable method, at least in my opinion: using information/ideas from a reference source to inform a creative work. But there has to be some creative effort on the part of the writer.


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 Post subject: Re: Many lines in Chronicles are from Time Magazine
PostPosted: Fri July 31st, 2009, 16:49 GMT 
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It's a scream about him learning to be a cult leader (note evolving mosaic..)


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 Post subject: Re: Many lines in Chronicles are from Time Magazine
PostPosted: Fri July 31st, 2009, 16:49 GMT 
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harmonica albert wrote:
Many of the examples cited are blatant plagiarism, and Dylan and his publisher could be sued for not giving credit to Time Magazine. Plagiarism is not avoided by changing a few words--taking content from an uncredited copyrighted source is also an act of plagiarism. Laziness seems to be the issue for Dylan, here as in so many other areas, but his editors did not adequately fact check his manuscript.
While I agree with this, at some point, a publisher puts some trust in the author's integrity to produce an original work or to faithfully cite sources. But no publisher (yet) has the ability to check an authors work line for line against everything that has been published. I worked for a publisher in the early to mid 90s. According to our editor, more books were published in the latter half of the 20th century than had previously been published in all of history. That does not include periodicals.

Couple that difficulty with the financial windfall a publisher knows will be coming their way by publishing the work of someone such as Bob Dylan and its easy to see why they might choose to not be bothered with verifying the author's work. Seriously, what person would take their time to go back through every issue of Time Magazine for the last 50 years to see if Dylan, or any other author, had routinely stolen content without citing it. (Okay, apparently someone has now done just that.)

I'll admit, I was too lazy to check it. I read the book and enjoyed it for what it was.


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 Post subject: Re: Many lines in Chronicles are from Time Magazine
PostPosted: Fri July 31st, 2009, 17:23 GMT 

Joined: Wed January 28th, 2009, 18:55 GMT
Posts: 179
Also, I seriously doubt, as one poster said earlier, that Dylan doesn't know of or understand the rules of crediting sources. From Nettie Moore: "The world of research has gone berserk/too much paperwork"

I read that as unmistakable defiance, an attitude that he's above the rules.


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 Post subject: Re: Many lines in Chronicles are from Time Magazine
PostPosted: Fri July 31st, 2009, 17:29 GMT 
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Untrodden Path wrote:
But no publisher (yet) has the ability to check an authors work line for line against everything that has been published. I worked for a publisher in the early to mid 90s. According to our editor, more books were published in the latter half of the 20th century than had previously been published in all of history. That does not include periodicals.

Couple that difficulty with the financial windfall a publisher knows will be coming their way by publishing the work of someone such as Bob Dylan and its easy to see why they might choose to not be bothered with verifying the author's work. Seriously, what person would take their time to go back through every issue of Time Magazine for the last 50 years to see if Dylan, or any other author, had routinely stolen content without citing it. (Okay, apparently someone has now done just that.)

I'll admit, I was too lazy to check it. I read the book and enjoyed it for what it was.


Bingo.
The problem here is that 1. We're talking about Simon & Schuster. Simon & Schuster, who employs, one assumes, a huge bevy of fact checkers, and who, while researching the autobiography of a man many consider to be the greatest living wordsmith of the 20th century, an autobiography that many would've said would never be written, and consequently a book nor only greatly anticipated, but certain to make the New York Times best seller list, couldn't (and more likely didn't) even Google some of these phrases and get the necessary permissions for reproduction? Funny too, that they know they've got 2 more to look forward to releasing. Money doesn't talk, it swears.

And 2. We're talking about a man who is renowned for playing loose with the term "borrowing", who was run out of Colorado, Dinkytown and his fraternity for "borrowing" records, cash, etc., who, when told that an image he'd chosen for a RTR poster would need to be checked for copyright permissions said "Let 'em sue us", and who has accumulated a lifetime's power and prestige, the likes of which have earned him the answer "yes" to any question because yes means money in all pockets, including those of the employees of one of the most respected publishing houses in the world.

Don't get me wrong, I love the guy but not blindly so. He's always been an artist who has suffered from lengthy creative droughts, who has a very hard time admitting to them without the buffer of time to ease the admission, and who has benefitted from allowed laziness due to stature.

And let's not forget, he's a very smart man who has always known exactly what he was doing and/or getting away with.


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 Post subject: Re: Many lines in Chronicles are from Time Magazine
PostPosted: Fri July 31st, 2009, 17:44 GMT 

Joined: Sat May 12th, 2007, 20:22 GMT
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This article from that issue is worth reading. . .even more so today.

Medicine: The Anatomy of Angst


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 Post subject: Re: Many lines in Chronicles are from Time Magazine
PostPosted: Fri July 31st, 2009, 17:50 GMT 
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Brairy, can you post a link?


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 Post subject: Re: Many lines in Chronicles are from Time Magazine
PostPosted: Fri July 31st, 2009, 17:59 GMT 
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SquareTotemPole wrote:
You took the words out of my mouth supermabel1, well at least took the words from my post.

I mean, really and truly, what is the big deal here? These are not cut and pastes, and as supermabel1 rightly notes, Bob Dylan has simply referred to a historical record to refresh his memory. So what?


I agree entirely. This is a total non-issue. Anyone who has ever done any research will understand that.


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 Post subject: Re: Many lines in Chronicles are from Time Magazine
PostPosted: Fri July 31st, 2009, 18:23 GMT 
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I disagree, and I have done research. This isn't a case of Fair Use, and the copyright laws that apply to the visual arts (the piece must be altered at least 20%) do not apply here either. Cut & paste appears to be precisely what he's done with this book. Dylan's circumventing of the copyright law doesn't constitute the right to circumvention. It looks to me like his thinking ran again to "Let 'em sue". If no one has or does, then it's a non issue for him again I suppose.


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