Expecting Rain

I'm sorry. I posted this in another thread just now and then see that it belongs here. I'm going to move it here with some adjustments. It was originally intended as a response to Henrypussycat.

I can see having trouble with the new song writing style, finding the lyrics not real in some way. I think that, and the problem of authenticity as crimson has proposed it, are real issues. There is a real problem with that once the style goes from Romantic confession to something like pastiche. But, surely it is possible to deliver an emotional punch and an intellectual one without it being confessional or personal. It's certainly harder to believe though. But, I am pretty sure that it's how poetry worked for centuries (quoted lines of classics, imitations of classics).

I am finding myself enjoying, but also being intrigued, by the new Dylan writing style -- since as Crimson (I believe) says, TOOM, certainly since LT (the title is an announcement of it, I think).

But there is something that appeals to me about the blatant allusiveness, the mashing together of disparate couplets, the whole pastiche style.
It can be affecting (as in emotional and direct), but mostly it is funny and thought-provoking in the sense of scholarly. A line from Mississippi John Hurt, a line from Huck Finn, a line from a Noir film, a line from Bing Crosby, etc. High art, low art, put in relation to one another. That's one aspect -- postmodern pastiche. I am inclined to like that -- just constitutionally. Nettie Moore is a good example. Sean Wilentz has that chapter on it that follows this out a bit.

Then there is something else: Like one's old father, any old person, sitting and recalling bits of stories, bits of events, recalling all manner of things about a time long gone. A kind of poetics of nostalgia (just to name it so I don't have to repeat the longer description). This is affecting for another reason -- not for its cleverness or brilliance -- but because of the desperation of it, the evocation of old age and dying.

Of course, it can be dismissed as lazy and thieving and meaningless. Could be. But it still works for me.

"I encouraged him to put all his hostility on tape, because I figured this was the way to get to the true Bob Dylan."

-- John Hammond on making Dylan's first album

lol
that's a neat quote, do you know where it's from?

Good evening, Giada. Here's the article I copied the quote from:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2012/ma ... nniversary

Am I dumb or is this too pseudo-intellectual? After reading this I am not sure if the cup of coffee in front of me is authentic or not...

There's a little more distance in the recent style but that's OK by me as it's always been there and is a huge part of what he's all about.

Check out the Biograph notes. He's never wanted to write confessional songs. ''I don't think of myself as Bob Dylan. It's like Rimbaud said, 'I is another.' '' I think he's gone further towards that the longer he's been writing.

It's what takes him to a different level beyond the likes of John Lennon who too often tried to sing about real things. That only led Lennon to being overly earnest and falling into contradictions, ie, rock star singing trying to keep it real and sing about the world being too materialistic while sitting in a mansion playing on an expensive grand piano.

Dylan on the other hand lives inside characters like a true artist should. It means he can't fall into contradictions or ever be pinned down to one belief.

Does it strike a chord with me? Does it echo common human feelings/emotions? So often the later songs it doen't. A lot is in how things are articulated. Compare lines from the bog-standard MT blues songs (not bog standard on L&T though) with "Oh I miss you Nettie Moore".... or "Sugar Baby get down the line/You ain't got no brains nohow" Sometimes there's some real blood still on the tracks. Wasn't TTL just mostly a throwaway? Does anyone take this album seriously? It's All Good which received loads of praise is lyrically dull and badly sung...

I like this. It was Dylan who said, "open yer eyes and ears and your influenced" ~ and echoes, lines even from other works have ALWAYS appeared in his songs. Plagarism is an accusation easy to throw around.... I remember Floater was commonly held to be "ripped off" a Japanese novel. Only the writer was relaxed about it.... did any of the accusers read it?

where's bennyboy?

That's a good description of the method and I only consider it thieving once it reaches a certain troubling threshold (the Timrod lifts bothered me). And as you say some people can be entertained by this cleverness; I hear the same sort of thing in Tom Waits. Maybe Waits is Dylan's muse now. It's probably all a matter of where you come in as a Dylan listener. I came in around Greatest Hits 2, all set up for the romance era.

i know what you mean its like finding yourself in church on a friday.

Is any topic that doesn't interest you pseudo-intellectual? You have a very high opinion of yourself.

I was just about to post the same old thread about "authenticity" when I saw smoke had already done so. There has been a lot of talk about "authenticity" over the years in various threads on ER. If you are interested in checking some of them out, along with the one smoke cites, do a search of "authentic" where Long Johnny was the author and you will come across a treasure trove of great old threads.

For the record, I have always been suspicious of the word "authenticity" in relation to music as I have never been sure what it means. With regard to Dylan, I have never found him to be particularly authentic. That being said (and as I have said before), I would also say that being "authentic" is not all that it is cracked up to be and I personally find Dylan to be his best in the period when I consider him the least "authentic" (ie. his early 60s "I'm a Woody Guthrie jukebox" period). Dylan did not grow up in a dust bowl. He did not ride the rails. He did not run away and join the carnival. He hadn't been doing a whole lot of Hard Travelin'. Rather, he was the talented son of an appliance salesman, with access to a good record collection.

Being accused of being "inauthentic" is not the same thing as being accused of not being good.

woody nicked songs left and songs right.
ramblin jack was from brooklyn
little richard used to hang with esquerita
there was a sonny boy 1 before there was sonny boy 2

just about everybody is unauthentic in these type of studies.

As many have noted before, the 'problem' of authenticity pervades almost all forms of non-cotton-candy-pop american music.

In a way, I think it may be a product of our particular way of (not) addressing our differences in class, race, other identity forms. It is codified very deeply that to overtly acknowledge difference, especially as it relates to opportunity, is taboo. That said, such differences are absolutely unavoidable without some very complex group think techniques, and still regardless of our mythology, they come squirting out the edges of our cultural sandwich like so much Miracle WhipTM.

This particular discussion thread seems to further confuse the issue by substituting 'authenticity' for 'originality'. To my mind, Authentic rock and roll is inherently Unoriginal.

When it comes to later day Dylan lyrics and music, I sincerely doubt that he is trying to fool anyone about his originality and/or authenticity. If anything, he is being more honest about his sources and inspirations than early in his career. He has come full circle, back to what Pete would call the Folk Tradition, of stealing, twisting, borrowing, reusing, repurposing, that which came before.

Which is not to confuse Honesty with Authenticity either.

When it comes to authenticity, and particularly Bob Dylan, he is the authentic soul of America. He takes it all in, and throws it back out in an unending, dazzling display of unprecedented genius and beauty. There is no other in his league, and probably never will be again.

and, do you expect a man in his mid/late 60's who has seen it all - and is trying to get to heaven
before they close the door - to be an emotional 35 year old from the 1970s?

people change. i think Bob gives what he gots. he's in a fun place, not a critical place.

now this is analysis i can rope my pony around.

[/quote]


i dont think you can be unoriginal and authentic at the same time. im not sure tho, i do know that nobody leaves these type of parties but in bad shapel.

i always thought that sugar sugar was a takeoff on cherry cherry and cherry cherry a take on some latin thing or another. both are monster tracks though.

i dont think you can be unoriginal and authentic at the same time. im not sure tho, i do know that nobody leaves these type of parties but in bad shapel.

i always thought that sugar sugar was a takeoff on cherry cherry and cherry cherry a take on some latin thing or another. both are monster tracks though.[/quote]

It's probably just a matter of semantics. To me a truly original take on music is very rare. I say rock and roll is unoriginal in it's essence because it does not exist without a huge amount of borrowing in form and content from Genres that predate it.

Differences in writing style between the earlier and recent stuff have already been summed up nicely. I'd add that the vocal delivery plays a part. It conveyed more emotion in the past as he had a wider range. He can still do good things with his voice but he can't do as much.

Authenticity is a separate point and it all comes down to one fact for me. It's not about whether the person singing the song is authentic it's about whether their performance is.

How do you differentiate between an "authentic" performance and an "inauthentic" performance?

how can you give an authentic performance if your are not authentic. isnt that like squeezing water outta rock??

all go as far as to say that everyone is authentic human and stop there.

So very true. It doesn't all come from within, he takes it in from the outside. The range of influences in his performances and the deep understanding of how to handle them it is beyond anyone else.

In the same way an actor can give an authentic performance without having actually lived the role they're playing.