Expecting Rain

All mankind is of one author, and is one volume; when one man dies, one chapter is not torn out of the book, but translated into a better language; and every chapter must be so translated. . . .

—John Donne


http://harpers.org/archive/2007/02/0081387

This article is long but is one of the best I have read and worth every minute of your time.

An old, coffee-cup-ringed copy is sitting on my desk -- has been for some time. It's a very interesting essay. A lot to think through there.

Assuming you're posting this as some sort of apology for Dylan's steals, it is worth nothing this passage:

"The Walt Disney Company has drawn an astonishing catalogue from the work of others: Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, Fantasia, Pinocchio, Dumbo, Bambi, Song of the South, Cinderella, Alice in Wonderland, Robin Hood, Peter Pan, Lady and the Tramp, Mulan, Sleeping Beauty, The Sword in the Stone, The Jungle Book, and, alas, Treasure Planet, a legacy of cultural sampling that Shakespeare, or De La Soul, could get behind. Yet Disney's protectorate of lobbyists has policed the resulting cache of cultural materials as vigilantly as if it were Fort Knox—threatening legal action, for instance, against the artist Dennis Oppenheim for the use of Disney characters in a sculpture, and prohibiting the scholar Holly Crawford from using any Disney-related images—including artwork by Lichtenstein, Warhol, Oldenburg, and others—in her monograph Attached to the Mouse: Disney and Contemporary Art.

This peculiar and specific act—the enclosure of commonwealth culture for the benefit of a sole or corporate owner—is close kin to what could be called imperial plagiarism, the free use of Third World or “primitive” artworks and styles by more privileged (and better-paid) artists."

In my analogy, Dylan is Disney and is guilty of committing "imperial plagiarism".

Yes, panther, ok. I am not a fan of the way intellectual property laws are deployed. And I think there is the potential for abuse in the cases of Disney and Dylan -- really, Dylan more than even Disney.

But the question is, what is copyrighted? In DIsney's case, if what they have copyrighted are the images -- the way their artists have drawn and depicted Robin Hood or Pinnochio -- and not the stories, then are we saying that they have gone too far? In both examples in the passage you reproduced, it seems that the claim was on their images and their use for personal gain by others. Perhaps there are cases in which Disney has sued over the retelling of the stories. I have not heard of that happening. But are we saying that the Disney artwork -- a fox in robin hood clothes -- is public property? That Disney has no rights to that innovation?

If Dylan sues another artist for using the melody Dylan took from Howlin' Wolf or a traditional song's melody, or if Dylan sues someone for using a line in a song that actually came from Ovid, for example, then we have an issue. To my knowledge, he has not done so.

But the pastiche works that Dylan has produced at least since Love and Theft are, nevertheless, original works. And if someone wants to copy exactly what Dylan has assembled for personal gain, then I would grant him the right to ask for royalties.

I think with Dylan's song writing it is the melodies and not the lyrics that are the most likely to be seen as crossing the line. Maybe I just know far less about how music rather than text can be used, what the traditions are. I assume that the estates of the artists (or the rights holders) are capable of making a royalties claim or filing suit against Dylan if they feel he crossed the line. And I assume, as is the case with so many artists, he would pay the money owed and news of it would appear in the public domain. Others who know more about the business of music licensing can say whether this has happened often, and if not, why.

I can't believe you pushed me to defend a set of laws and customs I find totally absurd. Ha!

You can probably say that about any popular musician, black, white, or brown.

"So you're the honky motherfcuker who stole my song and got a hit out of it?"
Apparently she'd heard my version of "Don't Let Me Be Misunderstood!" I was thunderstruck. Lost for words--and beginning to think that I should indeed have fled this scene long before. But after a silence I came at her. "Hey, listen, if you will admit that the work song in your set this evening probably belongs to the bones of some unfortunate buried in an unmarked grave in Angola State Penitentiary then I will admit that your version inspired us to record the song..."
She turned in her seat and slowly stood up. Linda nudged me from behind as Nina put her hand out toward mine and said, "My name's Nina Simone."--Eric Burdon's autobio

Right, and then there is the infinite regress of "ownership" that Giada is pointing to.

But even within the recent, and by no means self-evident, copyright laws, the claims panther is making are not so defensible.

A good read on this subject is:

Faking It: The Quest for Authenticity in Popular Music

http://www.amazon.com/Faking-It-Quest-A ... 0393060780

..our only hope is for any everything
to become the same value as nothing ..
When pricelessness is set free. ..

= except for sandwiches. .. For as long as
there are sandwiches you'll find an Artist
w/ a song, a poem, and a picture...

Nina Simone had a reputation for being confrontational about most things, warranted or not. But Burdon's comeback (as he wrote it) was just arrogant.

Thanks Raging, I don't have time to read it right now, but I love John Donne. He was so smart and some of his quotes are incredible. I will try and read it when my Dad goes to bed as he wants to use the computer. That is a great quote and it is really true - most stories are told and retold all down through history. I love Death, Be Not Proud by Donne. I can't wait to read this and Grumpy, please fix me a sandwich as I don't like to make any food and I don't know why. I am sure your sandwich would be much better than any I would make anyway. I think every artist is probably influenced by other and prior artists and is that really plagiarism? I think if you take a term paper that somebody else has written and turn it in as your own, that's plagiarism and there are other instances that would be plagiarism, but really, just retelling a story or song is showing respect and love to the original person, whoever or whomever that might be??? I need to look up that rule; I think about it every other day and never do. Anyway thanks Raging and hurry up with that sandwich Grumps!!! Love, J'Nico XOXO

Thanks for that. The basic idea of the article is a good argument AGAINST arguments some posters put forward in relation to Dylan's plagearism, especially in relation to ModBob records like 'Love&theft', as is highlighted in the article.This is good ammo, indeed, and it saves a lot of to-ing and fro-ing. One good article can counter an aggrevated spat between two opposing sides, by showing someone elses position.

All in all extra info is handy in discussions. I recently read a book and had some problems with some aspects, overlooked or considered unimportant by the author.I then went online and went through the different comments by readers, as well as reading various articles about the book AND the comeback from the author himself (It is Niail Ferguson's 'Civilisation'). The sometimes opposing views were insightful and enhanced the whole experience. I do miss that at times on this site, where it's quite often no more than a 'you're wrong (moron), and i'm right. A very tacky virtual court of law where everybody is the begrudge judge, with the splashy hammer dispersing shit.
So, this article presents a good underpin for a point of view, whether you agree with it or not

I use Dylan lines all the time when I speak and I don't even know I am doing it until I have done it and then I go "Isn't that a Bob line?" So, his lines have been passed down to me and if I was to write a song or a book, I am sure I would use a lot of lines or similar lines from his songs because they are ingrained in me now. Ballynally, that was a nice post and summed the whole situation up very well. Thanks Raging - you know you really do amaze me! Love, Joanna XOXO P.S. Panther, when did you get back and why did you leave??

Ok, my Mom doesn't know anything about this thread, but she just came out and asked me if the tune of John Brown's Body was the same tune as The Battle Hymn of The Republic and I thought that was really strange that she was thinking about this and I had just seen this post a little while before, but it is THE SAME TUNE!! Bob is doing nothing new; I guess I mean that both ways!!! He isn't doing any new tunes and using the same tune is nothing new. Here's the Wiki article and I think my Mom is pretty smart AND weird!! Love, Joanna XOXO
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Brown's_Body

Today's weekender email from Uncut magazine gives considerable insight into the mind set that seems to stamp every wisp of new Dylan material a Masterpiece:

I didn't go nowhere. I did move to Japan in January, and I haven't been into Dylan too much of late. That could be changing.

I'm awaiting the animated Disney release of Dylan's life. The music, figures, and collectibles should net them a fortune.

Thanks for the link Raging Glory. Can't wait to get into it.
The whole "controversy" of Bob's so called plagerism (sp) strikes me as ridiculous.
The fact is Dylan's appropriations usually turn the "original" inside out and upside down- and always create something new and entirely different and fresh. Second- he goes to no trouble to hide or disguise what he is doing which tells me he is aware of the tradition going back more than hundreds of years. Third, I and thousands upon thousands of others never fail to gain something worthwhile internally (aside from the entertainment value- which is really a side benefit to Dylan's art form at this point). Fourth is the exposure to all kinds of things most would hardly be aware of- which is also an argument for Bob's being deliberate in his choices. He is well aware of the scrutiny his work is always subjected to.

Old blues/song and dance man that he may be- and indeed now is- he is also the chief storyteller of a scattered tribe, traveling to the scattered
members telling and retelling the teaching stories that have been told from generation to generation for millennia. Will there ever be another traveling shamen storyteller once he is gone? When I look at the current musical culture it seems unlikely if not impossible in corporate sponsored-owned America and the constantly spreading westernization of the world in the service of profit. (not Democracy as "they" would have you believe.)
Will the tribe vanish in time as all do in time? Undoubtedly- but for now we get to hear the stories told and retold with added flourishes, embellishments cadences as any good storyteller will do. If we are particularly fortunate we get to go to the gatherings and receive the transmission of our stories in person Lucky us.

Well that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Oh_Mercy, so beautifully put - I always think of Bob as a traveling something, potion seller for your cures, and he is a sorcerer like Merlyn and therefore a shaman. I don't think he practices black magic anybody; his songs are magic! I hope the tribe NEVER vanishes, but the buffaloes did, so who knows? I liked "That's my story and I am sticking to it!" A person I used to know used to add another line "Who are you going to believe? Me or your lying eyes???? " You made me laugh first thing in the morning and I don't care what anybody says, there IS something magical about Bob and my opinion is that he received IT or whatever it is from God like prophets of the Old Testament. Love, Joanna XXOXO

First of all, that is a great article. Lately I have doing a great deal of reading on the history and origins of "The Arabian Nights," and I do believe certain tales are universal across almost all societies.

Cryptomnesia is a very interesting concept, only because it cannot be proved. I think musically it is a little easier to swallow, because there are a finite number of notes, and therefore a limited number of melodies.

Hard to believe Nabokov wouldn't have known about the 1916 story and pilfered it deliberately. Having said that, I don't have a problem with that, because he materially changed it into something new. He took the tale of a older man falling for a younger woman, which is a basic psychological archetype, and created a literary work from it.

Likewise, I don't have a problem with watching "Apocalypse Now" knowing that it is a take-off of Conrad, "West Side Story" knowing that it a take off of "Romeo And Juliet," or even the Stark Trek episode "Balance Of Terror" knowing it is a take off of "The Enemy Below," because in each case the "new" story adds a different dimension.

Also, I don't have a problem with the Cut-Up Method, because intellectually I know what is being employed and generally I know who is doing it. Similarly, I don't have a problem with sampling in rap music, mainly because, in the few rap albums I have looked at, the samples seem clearly credited.

With Dylan though, the issue becomes clouded; bear with me for a second. In each of the cases above, I either had exposure to the original, or at least had a chance to come across it at some point.

So lyrically Dylan's employing a version of the cut-up method. Cool, I didn't know that, but I don't have a problem with it, as I am familiar with it--perfectly valid artistic expression.

Musically though, I have a big problem when he is lifting whole melodies without credit. With folk music the conceit, which I don't particularly agree with, is that appropriating melodies is part of the folk process. And I am going to give him a slight pass on some of the blues-based things because, again, in the blues there are only so many melodies to go around.

But when I see that the music to "Blind Willie McTell" is a direct lift of "St. James Infirmary Blues," "Things Have Changed" is nearly identical to "Observations Of A Crow," "Floater" comes from "Snuggled On Your Shoulder" and "Sugar Baby" is derived from "The Lonesome Road," I start to have a real problem with that being uncredited.

Is Bob guilty of cryptomnesia? I am going to admit bias here, I consider myself pretty musically knowledgeable. I grew up on blues, rock and country music, have played in bands on and off all my adult life, took jazz guitar lessons for seven years and have more than a passing knowledge of classical music. I see and hear similarities between chord changes and melodies everywhere. I find it hard to believe it is cryptomnesia when whole songs are being lifted, and that there isn't some deliberate attempt on his part to hide his methods, considering the "obscure" songs being used. However, the fine folks on this forum and in others are familiar with these tunes he is "appropriating" and are pointing them out to us, so I might be able to pass it off as ignorance on my part.

So bottom line is, I think Bob needs to "cite his sources" at least musically, if only through a writing credit. Also, I respect his right to enforce his copyright, though I disagree with the applications of the law.

Finally, I'd be more willing to give Bob a pass on the "plagiarism" if he wasn't such a jerk about the Youtube stuff.

There are only so many combinations of notes that are possible.I think to be original in this time of day after almost 2000 years of music creation, is impossible.Its all influence, not stealing,everything's been done before.

Johanna that post sums me up too I know that since I was 19 I have constantly used Dylan lines and possiobly Paul Simon and other artists lines as well. However I believe I use them in an original way.

"Yet one of the more difficult things to comprehend is that the gift economies—like those that sustain open-source software—coexist so naturally with the market. It is precisely this doubleness in art practices that we must identify, ratify, and enshrine in our lives as participants in culture, either as “producers” or “consumers.” Art that matters to us—which moves the heart, or revives the soul, or delights the senses, or offers courage for living, however we choose to describe the experience—is received as a gift is received. Even if we've paid a fee at the door of the museum or concert hall, when we are touched by a work of art something comes to us that has nothing to do with the price. The daily commerce of our lives proceeds at its own constant level, but a gift conveys an uncommodifiable surplus of inspiration."

Beautifully written article! Enjoyed reading it Glory.

The number and and variety of basic melodies/tunes must be a lot less than combinations of words. Leading to poems and stories.
Yet I heard yesterday that there are only 7 basic stories in the world, the rest are variations on one of them.
The only one I remember is The Emperor's New Clothes. ie the popular view being distorted by the influence of a powerful person.
I think one of the others might be siblings falling out with eachother.

Another one is the battle between good and evil.
The same goes for songs , all songs are reworking of a few basic themes .