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 Post subject: Rollin' and Tumblin'
PostPosted: Sat September 9th, 2006, 04:25 GMT 

Joined: Thu January 12th, 2006, 02:44 GMT
Posts: 4850


Well, I rolled and I tumbled, cried the whole night long
Well, I rolled and I tumbled, cried the whole night long
Well, I woke up this mornin', didn't know right from wrong

Well, I told my baby, before I left that town
Well, I told my baby, before I left that town
Well, don't you let nobody, tear my barrelhouse down

Well, ahh, mmm-hmmm, owww, oww ooo, aww, oww, oh
Aaa, mmm-hmmm, oww, oh oh oh owww, oww ooo, aww, oww, oh

Well, if the river was whiskey, and I was a divin' duck
Well, if the river was whiskey, and I was a divin' duck
Well, I would dive to the bottom, never would I come up

Well, I could a had a religion, this bad old thing instead
Well, I could a had a religion, this bad old thing instead
Well, all whiskey and women, would not let me pray

by Muddy Waters


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat September 9th, 2006, 04:32 GMT 
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Good song.

Dylan has a knack for knowin' a good one when he sees one.........

.........and Takin' It. :twisted: :lol:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat September 9th, 2006, 06:37 GMT 

Joined: Sun October 2nd, 2005, 06:51 GMT
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I think if Dylan thought that anyone out there seriously believed that his song was unique, he'd be horrified. Rollin' And Tumblin' is hardly an obscure song. Even those that have never heard Muddy Waters - who, I believe, did not write it - have only to look as far as Eric Clapton's album for MTV.

Dylan's just using these blues songs as platforms. You can call it theft if you like, but there's clearly something original being created in the spirit of handed down lines and the oral tradition of folk/blues music.

http://www.lyricsdownload.com/bb-king-s ... yrics.html

I hope that, as this album becomes more and more successful, greedy and pedantic copyright lawyers don't get too excited. It goes with the territory.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat September 9th, 2006, 07:42 GMT 

Joined: Fri June 10th, 2005, 07:30 GMT
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Location: Perth, Western Australia
That is why it is one of the 2 or 3 best songs on the album.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat September 9th, 2006, 15:44 GMT 
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Mack, you are completely right about the song. I've been trying to get that across for some time. Who cares how the copyright is listed.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun September 10th, 2006, 01:49 GMT 
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Hambone Willie Newbern did it in 1929 (but he probably wasn’t the first).

And I rolled and I tumbled and I cried the whole night long,
And I rolled and I tumbled and I cried the whole night long,
And I rosed this morning mama and I didn't know right from wrong.

Did you ever wake up and find your dough roller gone?
Did you ever wake up and find your dough roller gone?
And you wrings your hands and you cry the whole day long.

And I told my woman Lord just before I left her town,
And I told my woman Lord just before I left her town,
Don't she let nobody tear her barrelhouse down.

And I fold my arms Lord and I slowly walked away,
And I fold my arms Lord and I slowly walked away,
Says that's all right sweet mama your trouble going to come some day.


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 Post subject: BB King Someday Baby
PostPosted: Sun September 10th, 2006, 01:58 GMT 

Joined: Sun August 20th, 2006, 04:11 GMT
Posts: 85
From the link kindly provided above.

BB King. Someday Baby.

Don't care when you go
How long you stay
But good kind treatments
Will bring you back someday
But someday baby
I ain't gonna worry my life anymore

Aw, but one thing
Really give me the blues
When i wore a hole
In my last pair of shoes
But someday baby
I ain't gonna worry my life anymore

Just keep on a-bettin'
About the...
You're gonna leave here runnin'
Almost too fast
But someday baby
I ain't gonna worry my life anymore

Don't like everybody
In my neighborhood
I got a no-good woman
She don't mean me no good
But someday baby
I ain't gonna worry my life anymore


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun September 10th, 2006, 01:59 GMT 

Joined: Fri June 9th, 2006, 14:28 GMT
Posts: 1433
I'm pretty sure Muddy has writers credits for it on his albums, but he definetly didn't write it. Dylan's has for the most part unique lyrics so I think he deserves a writing credit. I don't think it's possible to point out who first performed the song either, it's that way with a lot of old blues


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun September 10th, 2006, 02:27 GMT 
Woke up this mornin’, I must’ve bet my money wrong

Some young lazy slut has charmed away my brains

Well, I get up in the dawn and I go down and lay in the shade

This woman so crazy, I swear I ain’t gonna touch on another one for years

Ain’t nothin’ more depressin’ than tryin’ to satisfy this woman of mine

I’ve been conjuring up all these long dead souls from their crumblin’ tombs

etc.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun September 10th, 2006, 02:55 GMT 
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Sleepy john Estes recorded "Someday Baby" in 1935 (but he probably wasn't the first).

I don't care how long you're gone, I don't care how long you stay
But that good kind treatment, bring you back home someday
But someday baby
You ain't going to worry my mind any more

I hate that wind, that old chilly breeze
Come blowing through your BVDs
But someday baby
You ain't going to worry my mind any more

If you don't quit betting, boy those dice won't pay
It's gonna send you home on your yas-yas-yas
But someday
You ain't going to worry my life any more

It ain't but the one thing that give a man the blues
He ain't got no bottom in his last pair of shoes
But someday baby
You ain't going to worry my mind any more

I tell all the people in your neighbohood
You're a no-good woman, you don't mean no good
But someday
You ain't going to worry poor John's mind any more


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon September 11th, 2006, 14:09 GMT 
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I don't have Dylan's version committed to memory, but aren't his lyrics of Rollin' and Tumblin' different from those of Muddy Waters. And aren't his lyrics to Someday Baby, different from those posted on this thread?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon September 11th, 2006, 15:34 GMT 
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Someday Baby is based on Muddy Water's Trouble No More, which was based on Big Maceo Merriweather's Worried Life Blues. There are many uses of the Rolling and Tumbling verses in blues music, and if Muddy Waters did copyright his particular arrangement of the material early in his career he probably shared copyright with the Chess Brothers, but for much of his time withe Chess, Muddy's business arrangements were oral agreements and handshakes. Still, his version is distinctive in the choice and order of verses and the slide guitar line.

On both songs, not only the lyrics but the arrangement and guitar lines show a clear debt to the respective Muddy Waters versions.

Thunder on the Mountain is basically a Big Joe Turner song with Dylan lyrics. Bob did a decent version of Turner's Boogie Woogie Country Girl a few years back. Dylan's tune uses the rolling left hand piano style of Pete Johnson, not as firmly played but still swinging. The light-hearted lyrics also resemble the songs Turnder sang---Oke-She-Moke-She-Mop, Crawdad Hole, Flip Flop & Fly, etc.

I don't think it's a useful comparison to note the way old bluesmen would adapt and borrow traditional lines and verses as a justification for Bob Dylan rewriting old blues songs and copyrighting his own efforts. Dylan is a millionaire rock star with an army of lawyers and his own music publisher. He's not an intinerant musician playing juke joints for whiskey and tips and women. He didn't collect tips for Blind Lemon Jefferson as a boy. He doesn't live in a cultural dominated by oral tradition.

It might be interesting for someone to "adapt" a Dylan song according to Dylan's own standards, copyright it under their own name and release it on a record. Something titled Lay Lady Lay or maybe Blowing in the Wind. Anyone think Dylan's lawyers will understand?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon September 11th, 2006, 23:13 GMT 

Joined: Thu January 12th, 2006, 02:44 GMT
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Are you implying that the next time someone records an older version of Rollin and Tumblin, the Dylan Team will sue them? That Dylan is now claiming to own traditional songs as his own? Otherwise, what is problematic about what he is doing?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon September 11th, 2006, 23:18 GMT 
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I think the point is, that if someone took and old Dylan song and did what Dylan did with Muddy's versions of these songs, then they would be sued. I doubt Dylan's people would go after someone who did Rollin and Tumblin unless they copied some of Dylan's original lyrics to the song.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon September 11th, 2006, 23:27 GMT 

Joined: Thu January 12th, 2006, 02:44 GMT
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I actually think the Red Sails in the Sunset "borrowing" is the most problematic, because it's not a blues progression, but a very specific chord progression. If Bob Dylan now owns a previously public domain song (music wise, not lyric wise), then I would agree that is disturbing. Also, the fact that he doesn't credit any of the original sources...

Beyond the Horizon is my least favorite song on the album, because it is the least original, it doesn't feel like a Dylan song, because it isn't a Dylan song.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue September 12th, 2006, 14:40 GMT 
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Chord progressions can't be copyrighted, nor can titles. Only lyrics and melodies are copyright protected, which is why George Harrison had to pay for violating copyright on He's So Fine with My Sweet Lord, while Charlie Parker composed numerous original melodies on the frame of the chords to I Got Rhythm and paid Gershwin nothing.

Since Dylan used No More Auction Block as the basis for Blowing in the Wind, he can't argue for holding rights to the melody, or maybe he could but he'd probably lose. So here's what I mean by my example. Here is my original composition titled Blowing Wind

How many roads must a pilgrim take
to that bright palace of the sun?
I'm driving my jalopy without any brakes,
like Pretty Boy Floyd on the run.
How many beers will I drink 'til I know
I'm standing on the barrel of my gun?
The song you hear my friend, is just me blowing wind
The song you hear is just me blowing wind.

That took me about 5 minutes to figure out, and I'm doing other stuff at the same time. Give me another 10 minutes or so and I'd have a whole song. My method uses many of the stylistic features Dylan employs in song after song.

I think that is about how hard Bob worked on some of Modern Times songs.


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PostPosted: Sat September 16th, 2006, 16:32 GMT 
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What about Public domain?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun September 17th, 2006, 03:34 GMT 
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Bob uses alot of Public Domain material, so he won't get sued over any of that. But I'm puzzled that he seems so averse to giving due credit.

On "Good As I Been To You" he recorded "Hard Times" written by Stephen Foster in 1855 and "Tomorrow Night" written by Sam Coslow and Will Grosz in 1939. Both are credited to "Public Domain."

I'm surprised that "Tomorrow Night" was in the public domain after only 53 years. But either way, why not credit Foster and Coslow & Grosz, even if they are in the public domain?

Many blues singers have taken old songs and rearranged them and changed the words. Often they will call the new song something like "New Someday Baby" and then credit authorship to themselves. But by adding "New" to the title, they are acknowledging that it's a reworking of an older original "Someday Baby." Why doesn't Bob do that? "New Rollin' and Tumblin' " -- why not? He wouldn't be getting all this criticism if he'd called it that.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun September 17th, 2006, 05:03 GMT 

Joined: Thu January 12th, 2006, 02:44 GMT
Posts: 4850
Well, anyways, as has been said, the borrowing or stealing on modern times isn't really different than what he's always done, he has always plundered and pilfered and taken what he liked and reworked or stole how he saw fit.

"O where ha you been, Lord Randal, my son?
And where ha you been, my handsome young man?"
"I ha been at the greenwood; mother, mak my bed soon,
For I'm wearied wi hunting, and fain wad lie down."

"An wha met ye there, Lord Randal, my son?
And wha met ye there, my handsome young man?"
"O I met wi my true-love; mother, mak my bed soon,
For I'm wearied wi huntin, and fain wad lie down."

"And what did she give you, Lord Randal, My son?
And wha did she give you, my handsome young man?"
"Eels fried in a pan; mother, mak my bed soon,
For I'm wearied wi huntin, and fein wad lie down."

"And what gat your leavins, Lord Randal my son?
And wha gat your leavins, my handsome young man?"
"My hawks and my hounds; mother, mak my bed soon,
For I'm wearied wi huntin, and fein wad lie down."


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun September 17th, 2006, 08:04 GMT 

Joined: Mon January 9th, 2006, 09:01 GMT
Posts: 3059
Location: Manchester UK
The real problem isn't that Rollin and Tumblin is stolen, it's that it's dull.

Hard Rain may steal the structure of Lord Randal, but it makes something new with it.

(Ditto Blowin' In The Wind and Auction Block, or all the borrowed lines on Love and Theft).


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun September 17th, 2006, 09:07 GMT 

Joined: Thu January 12th, 2006, 02:44 GMT
Posts: 4850
Dylan:
Go ‘way from my window,
Leave at your own chosen speed
- “It Ain’t Me Babe” (1964)
Source:
Go away from my window
Go away from my door
- John Jacob Niles, “Go Away From My Window”

Dylan:
“A phrase in connection first with she I heard
That love is just a four-letter word.”
- “Love is just A Four-Letter Word” (1967)
Source:
“You don’t know what love is. To you its just another four-letter word.”
- Paul Newman, Cat on a Hot Tin Roof
Dylan:
“Well, I have had some rotten nights,
Didn’t think that they would pass.”
- “Seeing the Real You At Last” (1985)
Source:
“I’ll have some rotten nights after I’ve sent you over - but that’ll pass.”
- Humphey Bogart, The Maltese Falcon

Dylan:
“When I met you, baby,
You didn’t show no visible scars,
You could ride like Annie Oakley,
You could shoot like Belle Starr.”
- “Sweetheart Like You” (1985)
Source:
“I’m looking for a woman who can ride like Annie Oakley and shoot like Belle Starr.”
- Clint Eastwood, Bronco Billy

Dylan:
Lot of water under the bridge, Lot of other stuff too
Don’t get up gentlemen, I’m only passing through
“Things Have Changed (1999)
Source:
“Don’t get up, I’m only passing through”
- Vivien Leigh, A Streetcar Named Desire

Dylan:
“My old man, he’s like some feudal lord.
- “Floater” (2001)
Source:
“My old man would sit there like a feudal lord”
- Confessions Of A Yakuza

-- Andy Green


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue September 19th, 2006, 15:57 GMT 
Modern Times borrows a great deal from Robert Johnson--who also recorded an early version of Rollin and Tumblin--its chorus is the same as Bob's and Muddy's. (Muddy's version sounds, musically, a lot llike Bob's! ) Also, "Nettie Moore" comes from a traditional song.

I want to say I heard something on Elvis' sun recordings--and was thinking to myself--Hey! Dylan borrowed something from that song too!

Blowin in the Wind gets it melody from "The Old Auction Block." And "Desolation Row" from one of the traditional songs he recorded on "Good as I Been to You." I want to say it was Canadi-i-o, maybe. (If you listen to that cd, you will find a lot of similarities there.)

LWish I could keep writing on this. I love this topic! :D

There is an old saying among writers, "Good writers borrow; great writer's steal."


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu September 21st, 2006, 22:26 GMT 
OOps. I meant "No more Auction Block." But then everybody already knows that stuff.


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