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 Post subject: Re: What happened to Bob's voice in 2003?
PostPosted: Thu May 10th, 2012, 15:32 GMT 
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Ladies and gentlemen of the jury:

It is my personal belief that Bob's singing has little to do with the actual sound of his voice. Instead, I would like to suggest the real problem with Bob's voice is his attitude and/or passion.

Now, in regards to the actual sound of his voice (which, technically, is the topic of this discussion) - it's an acquired taste. Always has been - different, bizarre, sometimes inaccessible. The sound of his voice is not the issue. This is where I might derail the conversation...

The real issue is his attitude towards singing. Some folks around here ought to consider the fact that Bob just might not care all that much about carrying a tune or performing like he once did. People who claim 2003-2005 to be the last good years of the NET do so not because of the sound of his voice; people make the claim because these were certainly the last couple of years where Bob seemed - both visually and audibly - interested, involved, and inspired by what he was doing. I can on and on about this and I have before, but the point is that Bob no longer really tries to "hold" notes or sing with any kind of rhythm.

Don't believe me? Check out "Lonesome Day Blues" from the November 13, 2004 show at Rochester, New York. This is not the essential performance of the tune, but it does feature an excited, interested Bob Dylan who seems to actually be enjoying himself. While you're at it, check out "Dignity" from the same show. Make no mistake, folks, his voice is shot here. It has been for a very, very long time. However, in these select performance, you can't claim he's not enjoying himself. And that - the obvious fact that he's animated and "into it" - makes the performance. It elevates is.

There are many singers that "lost" their prime voices in their careers. All from hard living and/or getting older. They couldn't hit the notes and had to change the tunings of certain songs to be able to sing with the band. Big Joe Turner. Billie Holiday. Johnny Cash. Frank Sinatra. Elvis Presley. You can throw Bob Dylan in there with 'em. Go right ahead. However the big difference is that Big Joe, Lady Day, the Man in Black, the Chairman of The Board, and the King still performed until their deaths with passion and interest. If they didn't, the criticisms of them not being able to sing started. Elvis Presley's voice took a nose-dive from weight gain and hard living, but check out his performance of "Unchained Melody" near the end of his career. He puts his all into it. Unfiltered and raw and, ultimately, beautiful.

The problem with Bob has always been passion and interest. Why do people cite Blood On The Tracks as one of his best albums? Because it actually sounds like he gives a shit. Compare "If You See Her, Say Hello" to "Desolation Row." "If You See Her..." showcases a personal performance that breaks my heart every time; "Desolation Row" is a jokester song with smart ass characters. Why do some people around here claim Christmas In The Heart to be one of his most solid albums in recent years? Because Dylan actually sounds like he's having a good time singing them old tunes he grew up with. It's unfiltered; just the man doing what he wants and enjoying himself regardless of detractors or critics.

My point is this: I've seen Bob ten (maybe eleven?) times and seven since 2005 and I find myself at every concert waiting and hoping for that one moment or the couple verses where Bob is "into it." You know that moment. When he gets into a rhythm and starts moving and takes control of the song. Everybody here who is into ModBod knows exactly what I'm talking about. (If you don't - again, check out the aforementioned "Lonesome Day Blues" performance. There is a point, around the 5th or 6th verse, where Bob finds a rhythm and commits.) Well, since 2005, I have spent entire concerts waiting for that moment and it never arrives or lasts very long like it used to. In 2003, 2004, and 2005 these "into it" moments happened a lot. One might say his performances were consistent and thrilling and it's all because Bob sounds like he's on top of things. He's not behind the music and being pulled along by it - he's fighting with it, wrestling with it, engaging it. Folks knock Freddy Koella, but you can't deny that he was the last (and maybe the best) NET guitarist that obviously lit a fire under Bob.

I had high hopes when Charlie Joined back up a few years ago and it seemed when he first did that it definitely reanimated Bob to a certain degree. But the magic is fleeting, everybody. His passion just isn't there like it used to be and I don't understand why he's touring when it's pretty evident that he is now consistently "going through the motions." There will be those of you that will disagree and claim that Bob still loves what he does. Might be true. He might enjoy being on the road and across the seas and seeing the sights. But the songs don't seem to move him (if they ever did) anymore. If you're really interested in arguing with me then bring proof. Claim specific performances from recent years that can match those found in 2003, 2004, and 2005. Oh, and one performance from one concert won't work since Bob (in 2003-2005) consistently gave great performances throughout entire shows. Look up any of the Spring 2004 shows and see what I mean. St. Louis, Chicago, Detroit, Toronto - every one of the shows performed in these cities are worth keeping in your music collection.

The end.


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 Post subject: Re: What happened to Bob's voice in 2003?
PostPosted: Thu May 10th, 2012, 16:15 GMT 
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delvis_crasho wrote:
Folks knock Freddy Koella, but you can't deny that he was the last (and maybe the best) NET guitarist that obviously lit a fire under Bob.

The end.
Freddy is the most provocative guitarist to play with Dylan... and in my book the best... in combination with Larry. They complimented one another in every way to an incredibly effective result.


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 Post subject: Re: What happened to Bob's voice in 2003?
PostPosted: Thu May 10th, 2012, 16:44 GMT 
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delvis_crasho wrote:
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury:

It is my personal belief that Bob's singing has little to do with the actual sound of his voice. Instead, I would like to suggest the real problem with Bob's voice is his attitude and/or passion.

Now, in regards to the actual sound of his voice (which, technically, is the topic of this discussion) - it's an acquired taste. Always has been - different, bizarre, sometimes inaccessible. The sound of his voice is not the issue. This is where I might derail the conversation...

The real issue is his attitude towards singing. Some folks around here ought to consider the fact that Bob just might not care all that much about carrying a tune or performing like he once did. People who claim 2003-2005 to be the last good years of the NET do so not because of the sound of his voice; people make the claim because these were certainly the last couple of years where Bob seemed - both visually and audibly - interested, involved, and inspired by what he was doing. I can on and on about this and I have before, but the point is that Bob no longer really tries to "hold" notes or sing with any kind of rhythm.

Don't believe me? Check out "Lonesome Day Blues" from the November 13, 2004 show at Rochester, New York. This is not the essential performance of the tune, but it does feature an excited, interested Bob Dylan who seems to actually be enjoying himself. While you're at it, check out "Dignity" from the same show. Make no mistake, folks, his voice is shot here. It has been for a very, very long time. However, in these select performance, you can't claim he's not enjoying himself. And that - the obvious fact that he's animated and "into it" - makes the performance. It elevates is.

There are many singers that "lost" their prime voices in their careers. All from hard living and/or getting older. They couldn't hit the notes and had to change the tunings of certain songs to be able to sing with the band. Big Joe Turner. Billie Holiday. Johnny Cash. Frank Sinatra. Elvis Presley. You can throw Bob Dylan in there with 'em. Go right ahead. However the big difference is that Big Joe, Lady Day, the Man in Black, the Chairman of The Board, and the King still performed until their deaths with passion and interest. If they didn't, the criticisms of them not being able to sing started. Elvis Presley's voice took a nose-dive from weight gain and hard living, but check out his performance of "Unchained Melody" near the end of his career. He puts his all into it. Unfiltered and raw and, ultimately, beautiful.

The problem with Bob has always been passion and interest. Why do people cite Blood On The Tracks as one of his best albums? Because it actually sounds like he gives a shit. Compare "If You See Her, Say Hello" to "Desolation Row." "If You See Her..." showcases a personal performance that breaks my heart every time; "Desolation Row" is a jokester song with smart ass characters. Why do some people around here claim Christmas In The Heart to be one of his most solid albums in recent years? Because Dylan actually sounds like he's having a good time singing them old tunes he grew up with. It's unfiltered; just the man doing what he wants and enjoying himself regardless of detractors or critics.

My point is this: I've seen Bob ten (maybe eleven?) times and seven since 2005 and I find myself at every concert waiting and hoping for that one moment or the couple verses where Bob is "into it." You know that moment. When he gets into a rhythm and starts moving and takes control of the song. Everybody here who is into ModBod knows exactly what I'm talking about. (If you don't - again, check out the aforementioned "Lonesome Day Blues" performance. There is a point, around the 5th or 6th verse, where Bob finds a rhythm and commits.) Well, since 2005, I have spent entire concerts waiting for that moment and it never arrives or lasts very long like it used to. In 2003, 2004, and 2005 these "into it" moments happened a lot. One might say his performances were consistent and thrilling and it's all because Bob sounds like he's on top of things. He's not behind the music and being pulled along by it - he's fighting with it, wrestling with it, engaging it. Folks knock Freddy Koella, but you can't deny that he was the last (and maybe the best) NET guitarist that obviously lit a fire under Bob.

I had high hopes when Charlie Joined back up a few years ago and it seemed when he first did that it definitely reanimated Bob to a certain degree. But the magic is fleeting, everybody. His passion just isn't there like it used to be and I don't understand why he's touring when it's pretty evident that he is now consistently "going through the motions." There will be those of you that will disagree and claim that Bob still loves what he does. Might be true. He might enjoy being on the road and across the seas and seeing the sights. But the songs don't seem to move him (if they ever did) anymore. If you're really interested in arguing with me then bring proof. Claim specific performances from recent years that can match those found in 2003, 2004, and 2005. Oh, and one performance from one concert won't work since Bob (in 2003-2005) consistently gave great performances throughout entire shows. Look up any of the Spring 2004 shows and see what I mean. St. Louis, Chicago, Detroit, Toronto - every one of the shows performed in these cities are worth keeping in your music collection.

The end.



A great post, but I have to take issue with it.
1- It appears that his capacity to do what he used to do (like hold notes for long periods) is vastly diminished. That doesn't mean he can't do it at all, but I think it's diminished enough that it's a real stretch to argue he "doesn't care" because he doesn't do it.

2- Dylan appears to genuinely like the bark, to like what he can do with it rythmically, to like even the texture itself. He can be totally "into" a performance that is full of the barks, roars and grunts that drive some long-time fans from the room.

I had terrible expereinces at Dylan shows in 2006 and 2007, I even wondered if I'd ever bother going again, but in 2009 he blew me away and did so again in 2010. A lot of it has to do with the individual show you catch. I'll use one of those for your challenge: Chicago 10/31/09. I won't say it's better than the best of those years you mention but there's certainly plenty of commitment from Mr. ModBob.


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 Post subject: Re: What happened to Bob's voice in 2003?
PostPosted: Thu May 10th, 2012, 17:50 GMT 
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By the sounds of it, '06 and '07 were the lowest points of Bob's current touring history... worse than the days when he had too much cough syrup before the show(s). I like what I'm hearing for 2012 provided he's not on the keyboard. I'd like it more if the band would play to their ability... I don't know if its Bob holding them back or they just feel restrained when in the presence of greatness. I just know they have more to give than we have been receiving.


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 Post subject: Re: What happened to Bob's voice in 2003?
PostPosted: Thu May 10th, 2012, 21:00 GMT 
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He always has these moments when he's on. In Encamp in 2008 he was surprisingly focused during nearly all the show and it was wonderful. Something strange might had happened that day as he made some changes and the set and it's the only show he started with All along the watchtower in years. It's one of my 3 best Dylan shows, and I've seen him 13 times from 1989. And some friends had told me he had other days like this. Milano last year, I think, for instance. In the other latest shows, he has some moments.


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 Post subject: Re: What happened to Bob's voice in 2003?
PostPosted: Thu May 10th, 2012, 21:26 GMT 
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Bruce11 wrote:
I'm listening to shows around this time, trying to pin it down, but somewhere in 2003 or so Bob's voice changed and what you might call the modern "wolf man" tone was introduced. His voice was never quite the same after this. I wonder, what brought about this change?


I (sadly) agree w/ your and the next few posts.

To me, up to AND INCLUDING TOOM and Love and Theft, Bob's voice could STILL SERVE THE SONG.

As much as I like Modern Times, that's where I feel that his voice really, really struggles, and fails, to serve the song. Think of what Nettie Moore would be like with his TOOM voice, hmmm?

Just my 2 cents.


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 Post subject: Re: What happened to Bob's voice in 2003?
PostPosted: Thu May 10th, 2012, 21:30 GMT 
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delvis_crasho wrote:
If you're really interested in arguing with me then bring proof. Claim specific performances from recent years that can match those found in 2003, 2004, and 2005. Oh, and one performance from one concert won't work since Bob (in 2003-2005) consistently gave great performances throughout entire shows. Look up any of the Spring 2004 shows and see what I mean. St. Louis, Chicago, Detroit, Toronto - every one of the shows performed in these cities are worth keeping in your music collection.

The end.


I wouldn't argue with you, I think too there were more into-it moments till the mid 00's, but it still happens sometimes. Check out every song on Israel from last year or Forever Young in London when Bob is blessing Knopfler with his shofar-like harp. He seemed very into it then.

While his voice has gone worse through the years (no matter if he does it on purpose or not) and his recent guitar/organ playing suffer criticism, I think Bob's harmonica solos are better today than ever.

It's possible that what you call lack of interest in singing his songs is just Bob being very careful with his voice. I guess he could sing in a more powerful manner if he wanted too but he's aware of the cost. his vocal cords are so worn-out by now that every little delightful shout could tear them...


Last edited by oren on Thu May 10th, 2012, 21:46 GMT, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What happened to Bob's voice in 2003?
PostPosted: Thu May 10th, 2012, 21:43 GMT 
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dgsvoboda wrote:
Bruce11 wrote:
As much as I like Modern Times, that's where I feel that his voice really, really struggles, and fails, to serve the song. Think of what Nettie Moore would be like with his TOOM voice, hmmm?

Just my 2 cents.


But think of what a great song like Forgetful Heart would sound like with any of Bob's voices from 1962 to 2000 - Terrible. This song has to sound shot. Same reason why old Johnny Cash's version of Hurt was so successful.


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 Post subject: Re: What happened to Bob's voice in 2003?
PostPosted: Thu May 10th, 2012, 23:26 GMT 
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2003 & 2004 still sound good to my ears. The only era of live Dylan singing thT I really don't care for is the high nasal stuff circa Dylan and the dead


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 Post subject: Re: What happened to Bob's voice in 2003?
PostPosted: Thu May 10th, 2012, 23:47 GMT 
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2007 was the year of Revolution

Denny was a brilliant Whitesnake driving Bob's UFO and Bob then cracked the Code

he said so to Flanagan in the 2009 interview - how singing the lyrical rhythms freed the truer meanings from heavy content's moorings

:wink: :)


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 Post subject: Re: What happened to Bob's voice in 2003?
PostPosted: Fri May 11th, 2012, 09:50 GMT 
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hana wrote:
Surgery? Should Bob Dylan sound like Adele? Or should we complain about his hair getting grey - he should perhaps colour it green?


+1 :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: What happened to Bob's voice in 2003?
PostPosted: Fri May 11th, 2012, 10:15 GMT 
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i agree with most everything in posts 1, 2, 3, 7 & 10. (& 12 :wink: )

My first recent bob show was one of Denny's last, and i felt a jazzy component to the sound that really allowed for some special moments to happen on stage (i'm referencing South Bend, July 3, 2009) - beyond the horizon was pretty powerful.

i think the entire bar has been steadily raised with Charlie's addition, so they've found a consistency, but lost a little of the variety that let to some of those magic moments.


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 Post subject: Re: What happened to Bob's voice in 2003?
PostPosted: Sat May 12th, 2012, 11:48 GMT 

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Tragos114 wrote:
Nothing happened to Bob's voice in 2003 . Or rather , of course it changed but it is very different almost every year of the net . One might say though that it has changed less after 2003 .


Well, of course the condition of Bob's voice is always changing, but I strongly disagree that 2003 was just another year in this respect. If you have some recordings available I'd encourage you to pick a few random tracks from summer 2002 and compare them with a few random tracks from summer 2003. It's like saying the change between '76/'77 and '78 is just another year-by-year difference.


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 Post subject: Re: What happened to Bob's voice in 2003?
PostPosted: Sat May 12th, 2012, 19:49 GMT 

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dgsvoboda wrote:
To me, up to AND INCLUDING TOOM and Love and Theft, Bob's voice could STILL SERVE THE SONG.


he is serving them, unearthing them, keeping things alive, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: What happened to Bob's voice in 2003?
PostPosted: Sat May 12th, 2012, 22:04 GMT 

Joined: Mon January 9th, 2006, 10:01 GMT
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delvis_crasho wrote:
My point is this: I've seen Bob ten (maybe eleven?) times and seven since 2005 and I find myself at every concert waiting and hoping for that one moment or the couple verses where Bob is "into it." You know that moment. When he gets into a rhythm and starts moving and takes control of the song. Everybody here who is into ModBod knows exactly what I'm talking about. (If you don't - again, check out the aforementioned "Lonesome Day Blues" performance. There is a point, around the 5th or 6th verse, where Bob finds a rhythm and commits.) Well, since 2005, I have spent entire concerts waiting for that moment and it never arrives or lasts very long like it used to. In 2003, 2004, and 2005 these "into it" moments happened a lot. One might say his performances were consistent and thrilling and it's all because Bob sounds like he's on top of things. He's not behind the music and being pulled along by it - he's fighting with it, wrestling with it, engaging it. Folks knock Freddy Koella, but you can't deny that he was the last (and maybe the best) NET guitarist that obviously lit a fire under Bob.

I had high hopes when Charlie Joined back up a few years ago and it seemed when he first did that it definitely reanimated Bob to a certain degree. But the magic is fleeting, everybody. His passion just isn't there like it used to be and I don't understand why he's touring when it's pretty evident that he is now consistently "going through the motions." There will be those of you that will disagree and claim that Bob still loves what he does. Might be true. He might enjoy being on the road and across the seas and seeing the sights. But the songs don't seem to move him (if they ever did) anymore. If you're really interested in arguing with me then bring proof. Claim specific performances from recent years that can match those found in 2003, 2004, and 2005. Oh, and one performance from one concert won't work since Bob (in 2003-2005) consistently gave great performances throughout entire shows. Look up any of the Spring 2004 shows and see what I mean. St. Louis, Chicago, Detroit, Toronto - every one of the shows performed in these cities are worth keeping in your music collection.

The end.

Great post Delvis!

To my mind the NET collapsed when Larry Campbell left and has never really recovered. The shows after Koella left in 2004 are still pretty damn good.

There are some okay bootlegs from 2005 (e.g. Dublin) and I really enjoyed shows in Birmingham 2007 and Liverpool 2009.

The performances became significantly worse when Sexton rejoined. Wonder why?

I also wonder why the hell is Dylan still on the road. He must be doing it because he enjoys doing it, but I wonder how anyone can be enjoying doing that to their throat. I also wonder why none of the high quality professional musicians in his band ever says "actually Bob, that's really terrible". They must know.

Freeman maybe had some standards and criticised the band leader's organ-playing or singing? I wonder if that's why Freeman left and Sexton came back?

Still, it wouldn't be Dylan if what he was doing made any sense.


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 Post subject: Re: What happened to Bob's voice in 2003?
PostPosted: Sun May 13th, 2012, 09:37 GMT 
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RichardW wrote:
delvis_crasho wrote:
I also wonder why the hell is Dylan still on the road.



He's just holding up his end of the bargain...


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 Post subject: Re: What happened to Bob's voice in 2003?
PostPosted: Sun May 13th, 2012, 12:37 GMT 
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oren wrote:


He's just holding up his end of the bargain...


I'd like to have a few words with the person on the other end of that bargain. You Think they work for Columbia?


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 Post subject: Re: What happened to Bob's voice in 2003?
PostPosted: Sun May 13th, 2012, 17:55 GMT 
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If any Columbia manager would tell Bob he's forced to keep on touring for them, he'll probably get a stare like in my avatar. Bob has already quit touring for 8 years in his prime, why would he take commands from his records company when he's 70?
I wouldn't be surprised if Bob really does relate to the NET some spiritual or religious cause.


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 Post subject: Re: What happened to Bob's voice in 2003?
PostPosted: Mon May 14th, 2012, 02:19 GMT 
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oren wrote:
If any Columbia manager would tell Bob he's forced to keep on touring for them, he'll probably get a stare like in my avatar. Bob has already quit touring for 8 years in his prime, why would he take commands from his records company when he's 70?
I wouldn't be surprised if Bob really does relate to the NET some spiritual or religious cause.
That Bob is fulfilling the will of the Almighty One is spiritual or religious enough for me.


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 Post subject: Re: What happened to Bob's voice in 2003?
PostPosted: Mon May 14th, 2012, 06:16 GMT 

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Have any of you guys griping about the recent singing and passion level heard the 'Not Dark Yet' from 4/28 of this year? If so, would be interested to hear how that fits in.


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 Post subject: Re: What happened to Bob's voice in 2003?
PostPosted: Mon May 14th, 2012, 09:20 GMT 
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I don´t think any Columbia manager or any power on the other end of bargain force Bob Dylan to tour. I think he just likes to sing. And I am happy for that because I like to listen to it.


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 Post subject: Re: What happened to Bob's voice in 2003?
PostPosted: Mon May 14th, 2012, 10:00 GMT 
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What happened is it got really really shite. Knowing how and why is only gonna bring us all down even more.


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 Post subject: Re: What happened to Bob's voice in 2003?
PostPosted: Mon May 14th, 2012, 17:43 GMT 
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What happened is the man got old. Your voice is bound to change, and his isn't bad at all.


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