Expecting Rain

The notion of authenticity is something that is generally very prized by lovers of music. But what it actually means is probably different from one person to the next. One person might listen to a Pussycat Dolls tune and find deep and profound emotional insight, and then listen to Blood on the Tracks and be left cold. Thats an extremely polarised example, But by and large most people would be able to agree that there is a certain 'realness' in the emotions expressed on Blood on the Tracks, that is absent on a Pussycat Dolls song.

The reason I bring this up is because i have felt that over the last decade or more, Bob's songs have become less authentic or 'real'.
I genuinely adore 'Love and Theft', its one of my favourite Bob albums, but i think the trend began on this album. It could be argued that a lot of the lyrics on 'Time out of Mind' were plagiarised too and perhaps that makes it less authentic or real. But to me there seems to be a tangible sense of genuine emotion on that album, fear of death, loss of love.. etcetera.
I think from Love and Theft onwards, and with progressively diminishing returns, Bobs songs have sounded less like true expressions of any real emotions, experiences or opinions. I think the blues songs suffer the most from this, Bob is a walking encyclopedia of blues lyrics, which he seems to feel he can just regurgitate at random, slap a few vague blues lyrics together, and Bob's your uncle. (pardon the pun).
I find it hard to believe that any of his romantic lyrics, or lyrics related to relationships are actually coming from any real experience. They are sounding more and more like emotionally unengaged, vague Dylanesque songwriting. Basically Dylanesque songwriting by-numbers. Even the songs that sound like they should be about something (aint talking, i feel a change coming on, for example), end up being just smoke and mirrors, and the more you study them the less they mean. I think this coupled with the exposure of extensive plagiarism over the last decade, renders it hard for me to BELIEVE Bob's more recent songs.

I brought this up in the Modern Times thread, but i felt it was worth a thread of its own.
Does anybody agree with me? Or does anybody think that songs like 'Someday baby', 'Rolling and tumblin', or 'Jolene' for example, sound as 'real' and 'genuine' as anything he has put out?

?

whos to say whats real and what is not. is the jack of hearts real?
how reals is idiot wind? both those songs have an MT feel, MT just has a better band.


im gonna have to hit the orphanages for this thread.

I knew youd be the first to comment goombay, your very militant

You raise a good point, in that realness and authenticity are both very personal and subjective things that we take from music. I think i covered that in my original post.
Regarding Idiot Wind i think that to me it sounds like something genuine, yes there are some quite vague lyrics, but the overall feeling i get from it is a man expressing a whole range of honest emotions like: love, despair, anger, regret, forgivness and so on.
I dont get that on anything Bob has put out over the last few decade.
With regard to Lily Rosemary and the Jack of Hearts, i must say its one of least favourites on Blood on the Tracks, perhaps it isnt 'about' anything 'real' (and im sure some could argue that it is) but either way its an entertaining story told with humour and with and a unique use of language, that for me makes it dwarf most things Bob has slapped together over the last few years.
Do you care to share your opinions on what you find authentic or genuine on Bobs songwriting over the last decade, or are you just going to curse everybody who has an opinion you dont want to hear?

That's great goombay!

if wisdom rises up in strife, im bound to be plato soon.

by authentic do you mean if they actually happened? something that would fill bob up with self doubt and then write about it?

that you are a big girl now is about the wife? or is it about the wife?
is dear landlord about ole albert? ( bear in mind that bob aint the kind to call albert his landlord).

how about the following lines, i hear as Authtencity in your face type of lines:

the buying power of the proletariat is gone down
money is gettin shallow and weak
well the place i love best is a sweet memory
its a new place that we trot
they say low wages are a reality
if we want to compete abroad

I have real authentic copies of all of Dylan's latter day songs.

I guess we first need to discuss what's real and what is not. Please define these terms, quite clear no doubt...

sometimes nobody wants what you got. cant even give it away.

I guess i mean, if they sound like they have some meaning, something related to a real experience, some tangible genuine emotion.
By the way im all for songs like Black Diamond Bay, which is obviously not something Bob experienced himself, its a fictional story. but its still a coherent story, told with flair and panache. Rolling and tumbling on the other hand...not so much.

well as far as relating to a real experience im pretty certain rollin and tumblin got the ups on black diamond bay.

do blues qualify for authenticity?

how about something like jokerman that is pretty authentic but about nothing in particular, which is what makes it so authentic. great track

Im well aware, that authenticity means something different to different people, and i think i have outlined what it means to me in multiple posts.
Do you care to share your opinions, on what you get from bobs songs these days?

Maybe i shouldn't have used the word 'authentic', cos we can go round and round debating what it means.
What im trying to get across, is that in my opinion bob's songs are less coherent, vague and generally uninspired than in the past. They sound more and more detached from any real experience, and more by the numbers, as time goes on, and plagiarised to boot.
I love fictional songs, and i even like nonsensical songs. but i like them to have either some sort of coherency to them or some striking use of language and music. and in my opinion that has diminished over the last few years. Im not so sure Jokerman is about nothing, but i take your point, either way i think the use of language and melody on Jokerman is markedly stronger than anything from the last decade.

id like to open this discussion up to everybody else, i think i have said my bit, and id like to hear some other peoples opinions. Im not up for 'toing and froing' with goombay.

might i ask what is it about this post-modern world that reflects coherence and sense? is it even possible to be authentic and confined to a structured narrative at the same time?

"The party’s over and there’s less and less to say
I got new eyes
Everything looks far away"
~B.Dylan

i think what folks want is for bob write songs about what happens to him with totally unmistakable brand new words. should he find a line in a fu manchu book that expresses an authentic thought of his, then its not good not authentic.

i think is that bob mind works in an unique way not so much as everybody elses. that old time music is, according to him, his sable and sword. or words that effect.

Yes, I agree and that was my point about Modern Times. I'm willing to hear other viewpoints because I'd rather like the songs than dislike them but I miss the bite of real detail. If I want a bunch of made up clever stuff I could just as easily go hear Tom Waits. Some people like that kind of thing.

you guys gotta listen again few albums carry as many bitemarks of real detail as TM

When the Deal Goes Down sounds pretty "authentic", it expresses real emotions, it's heartfelt, has something to do with real life, things we can relate to, and it seems like it may in fact be Bob's true feelings. On the other hand Frankie Lee and Judas Priest has none of that. Personally I like both songs. Seems like there's a range of reality and unreality thoughout Bob's songs. I'm not sure what the big deal is, that songs need to be authentic.

Thanks henrypussycat ...youre not one of the pussycat dolls are you?

id like to say that i dont hate everything bobs done over the last decade either, and i will go out and buy his new album when it comes out. but im just expressing why i seem to be getting diminishing returns from Bobs more recent releases.
I agree with carnap on his last point there actually, 'When the deal goes down' does strike me as one of the more authentic ones of recent years. And i also like Frankie Lee and Judas Priest. Again, perhaps 'authenticity' was the wrong choice of words, its a mixture of a few things actually. originality, musicality, general flair and bite etc

come on guys! im just talking out my issues, with recent Bob songs

I think it's all a natural progression and evolution. You get older, you see things differently, and have different priorities. I don't listen to the new stuff that much, or the older, for that matter, but when I do, I'm still stunned and amazed at his wording, ideas, and insights.

For example, I picked up "Chronicles" the other night to read myself to sleep. On the first or second page, he talks about an agent taking him to a boxing event, and introduces him to Joe Louis(the ex world champ). He says to Bob "don't be afraid to him em' really hard!". The promoter says, "he's a folksinger, not a fighter".

That's not exact wording, but from memory(I'm at work).
It stunned me when I read it because I couldn't even remember it from my first read. This was in the very early days, written in the later days. I took it to be allegorical symbolism. Bob likes fighting, and works out in a ring from time to time. I take it to mean - don't be afraid to use your lyrics to hit them as hard as you can for social justice etc. Why else would he throw that in right at the start of his book? He's always operated on numerous levels at once, and continues to this day. That's why when the Bennie's of the world cry on about his voice, I say big deal, the magic is still there.

they say im over the hill
that im past my prime
well let me see what they got
we'll have a whopping good time

^plenty of real stuff in his current songs, Tell ol' Bill seems chock full of them too, and especially When The Deal Goes Down as Carnap mentioned.

I will say that while I hear any number of metaphorical meanings I also hear a real lover in his earlier songs. Whether it is a real lover and whether the you was really an "I" and so on is another topic, but I'm easily convinced. In recent years I hear the relationship stuff as generally more metaphorical, which doesn't mean that it is. As someone above said, feelings change as one ages. I'm way younger than Bob but things don't seem so intense or meaningful as they used to. On the other hand, hopelessness, self-pity and even incohate rage seem easier to slip into than at any time since I was a teenager. Whattaya gonna do?

Unlike some, I never get the feeling Dylan is conning me on modern albums, at least not more than he has all along. Many of the lyrics are wonderous and exciting, and real. I do believe that for him the landscape is glowing, gleamin' in the golden light of day. And that our violent world needs a shot of Henry Timrod every bit as much as it did in civil war times. There is a difference though that is hard to put my finger on. Someone recently wrote that Oh Mercy was the last album from the Bob Dylan he used to know, and I understand what he/she meant, but at the same time I think it's more down to his perspective and ever-changing songwriting techniques than to a lack of feeling or ability or heart or intellect.

For a pretty long discussion of authenticity, per se, check out this thread (I wonder what stupid crap I wrote in it

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=44010&view=previous

there stuff there about the crusades, the roman empire and jung.
who is it they want to swing by the ankles and throw at dock boggs?

I think it's got more to do with Dylan's life
than with Dylan's ability.
When the man is not being severely fuelled
by political, religious or romantic passion,
things tend to get a little bland and general.

There was evidence of this in the early 70's
and in the mid 80's
Dylan is possibly quite contented these days.
He has love, success and a granite reputation.

thats a tough crowd. even charo gets tore up, she was nice she once autographed an album for me. wonder if i still have.