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 Post subject: Summer Listening Challenge pt27 Under the Red Sky
PostPosted: Fri August 17th, 2012, 12:26 GMT 
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An attempt to listen to all of Bob Dylan's studio albums in order over the summer, as we move closer toward climax with the release of Tempest on September 11. Only 7 more to go!

Part 27
Under the Red Sky
Release: September 11, 1990

Report your thoughts here after playing Under the Red Sky...

allmusic review:
Dylan followed Oh Mercy, his most critically acclaimed album in years, with Under the Red Sky, a record that seemed like a conscious recoil from that album's depth and atmosphere. By signing Don Was, the king of mature retro-rock, as producer, he guaranteed that the record would be lean and direct, which is perhaps exactly what this collection of simplistic songs deserves. Still, this record feels a little ephemeral, a collection of songs that Dylan didn't really care that much about. In a way, that makes it a little easier to warm to than its predecessor, since it has a looseness that suits him well, especially with songs this deliberately lightweight. As such, Under the Red Sky is certainly lightweight, but rather appealing in its own lack of substance, since Dylan has never made a record so breezy, apart from (maybe) Down in the Groove. That doesn't make it a great, or even good, record, but it does have its own charms that will be worth searching out for Dylanphiles.

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Bob Dylan
Release: March 19, 1962
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The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan
Release: May 27, 1963
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The Times They Are a-Changin'
Release: January 13, 1964
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Another Side of Bob Dylan
Release: August 8, 1964
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Bringing It All Back Home
Release: March 22, 1965
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Highway 61 Revisited
Release: August 30, 1965
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Blonde on Blonde
Release: June 20, 1966
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The Basement Tapes
Recorded: June-September 1967 Release: June 26, 1975
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John Wesley Harding
Release: December 27, 1967
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Nashville Skyline
Release: April 9, 1969
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Self Portrait
Release: June 8, 1970
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New Morning
Release: October 21, 1970
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Pat Garrett & Billy the Kid
Release: July 13, 1973
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Dylan
Release: November 16, 1973
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Planet Waves
Release: January 17, 1974
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Blood on the Tracks
Release: January 17, 1975
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Desire
Release: January 16, 1976
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Street Legal
Release: June 15, 1978
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Slow Train Coming
Release: August 20, 1979
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Saved
Release: June 20, 1980
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Shot of Love
Release: August 12, 1981
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Infidels
Release: November 1, 1983
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Empire Burlesque
Release: June 8, 1985
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Knocked Out Loaded
Release: August 8, 1986
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Down in the Groove
Release: May 31, 1988
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Oh Mercy
Release: September 22, 1989
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Under the Red Sky
Release: September 11, 1990

Good as I Been to You
Release: October 27, 1992

World Gone Wrong
Release: October 28, 1993

Time Out of Mind
Release: September 30, 1997

"Love and Theft"
Release: September 11, 2001

Modern Times
Release: August 29, 2006

Together Through Life
Release: April 28, 2009

Christmas in the Heart
Release: October 13, 2009


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 Post subject: Re: Summer Listening Challenge pt27 Under the Red Sky
PostPosted: Fri August 17th, 2012, 14:17 GMT 
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half of it is great. i mean: Image title song with it's lovely guitar licks, handy dandy got nice bridge, 2x2 got great crosby backing and tv talkin' song is catchy, in itself.

and the other is...well it could be better but Bob's mind and heart were with Wilburys then...


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 Post subject: Re: Summer Listening Challenge pt27 Under the Red Sky
PostPosted: Fri August 17th, 2012, 14:48 GMT 

Joined: Tue December 30th, 2008, 10:05 GMT
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First Bob album I bought at the time of its release so I was listening without prejudice and... I really like it; Unbelievable, 2x2, Cat's In the Well, Handy Dandy are all really good songs/performances. Wiggle Wiggle, Under the Red Sky and 10,00 Men are pretty good too.
Ok, it may not have the profundity of Oh Mercy, and the 'nursery rhyme' approach to writing may not be everybody's cup of tea but it never plumbs the depths of some of Dylan's 80's releases.


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 Post subject: Re: Summer Listening Challenge pt27 Under the Red Sky
PostPosted: Fri August 17th, 2012, 22:11 GMT 
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A wondrous album of nursery rhymes and children's songs... with just about everybody who ever picked up a guitar included on the album... except me. :(

The list of musicians reads like a who's who and of course, you get what you pay for... actually, if you buy it now, you probably get more than you pay for because its frequently on special.

And the video Unbelieveable is just that... unbelieveable. One of the funniest, most unusual videos by a major star. If I could ask Dylan just one question about his entire career and get a straight answer, I'd ask what the meaning of the video is... I'm willing to venture a guess that the secret meaning to life is contained in that video! 8)


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 Post subject: Re: Summer Listening Challenge pt27 Under the Red Sky
PostPosted: Fri August 17th, 2012, 22:22 GMT 

Joined: Sat August 16th, 2008, 22:48 GMT
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I really enjoy Handy Dandy, Under the Red Sky, God Knows, Born In time, Cats In the Well..... Unbelieavable & 2x2 pretty good too. Tv Talkin alright... So come to think about it, the album is much better than I remembered or gave it credit for! 10,000 men ok at best & wiggle Wiggle nooooooo! As often with Bobby the production aves much to be desired; too "vanilla" like.. Much better takes of Born In time & God Knows.... h Mercy outakes TTS & of course some of these cannot touch their NET incarnations! I am shocked upon re-listening to this record... Not a major work of course but solid imo.... MEZ


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 Post subject: Re: Summer Listening Challenge pt27 Under the Red Sky
PostPosted: Fri August 17th, 2012, 22:28 GMT 
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Who else here was there when Handy Dandy was performed live for the only time so far?


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 Post subject: Re: Summer Listening Challenge pt27 Under the Red Sky
PostPosted: Fri August 17th, 2012, 22:50 GMT 
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A weird but charming record.
I always felt this whole album was one big pun - one that I never fully understood :wink:
But what attracts me most is the overall "warmth" of the sound, a sound of life-affirming lightness (so to speak). A very special record, really (and in a good sense!).


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 Post subject: Re: Summer Listening Challenge pt27 Under the Red Sky
PostPosted: Fri August 17th, 2012, 23:08 GMT 
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I think it was a record he made for his kid. It's dedicated to his daughter, who was four at the time, and it has all those nursery rhyme references.


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 Post subject: Re: Summer Listening Challenge pt27 Under the Red Sky
PostPosted: Fri August 17th, 2012, 23:57 GMT 

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The whole album sounds half-assed and tossed off, which is a shame as there's actually a few decent songs on there. Pity they're treated in such a desultory manner.


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 Post subject: Re: Summer Listening Challenge pt27 Under the Red Sky
PostPosted: Sat August 18th, 2012, 00:47 GMT 
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not really much to like or dislike on this lightweight effort really - I always felt that it is the one Dylan album that could have been written by anybody really ... if it was re-recorded by someone else, and then I listened to it for the first time, Im not sure Id be able to pick it as authored by Dylan.

its like going to a great steak restaurant and being served the salad


Love the feel of TV Talkin Song outtake though


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 Post subject: Re: Summer Listening Challenge pt27 Under the Red Sky
PostPosted: Sat August 18th, 2012, 00:56 GMT 
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Underrated. I mean, it's not as good as Oh Mercy by any means, but it's no Knocked Out Loaded. I don't see how anyone could just downright hate it.


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 Post subject: Re: Summer Listening Challenge pt27 Under the Red Sky
PostPosted: Sat August 18th, 2012, 03:23 GMT 
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The few decent songs fared much better live. It's a mediocre album, badly performed and produced, with some lyrics that look okay on the page but lack any distinctive melody or delivery, other lyrics that are just stupid. Calling it a "nursery rhyme" album as if that's not a damning pejorative is delusional. The title song is one of the worst songs ever written, just appallingly lazy and dumb. Yes, they were baked in a pie. Inanity repeated doesn't get any less inane the second time through. That one so high should fall so low is just sad.


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 Post subject: Re: Summer Listening Challenge pt27 Under the Red Sky
PostPosted: Sat August 18th, 2012, 08:11 GMT 
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Johanna Parker wrote:
I think it was a record he made for his kid. It's dedicated to his daughter, who was four at the time, and it has all those nursery rhyme references.


I never fully bought this theory tbh. Do you know if he ever confirmed it?

harmonica albert wrote:
The title song is one of the worst songs ever written, just appallingly lazy and dumb. Yes, they were baked in a pie. Inanity repeated doesn't get any less inane the second time through. That one so high should fall so low is just sad.


What's going on there is called humour. U better look it up.


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 Post subject: Re: Summer Listening Challenge pt27 Under the Red Sky
PostPosted: Sat August 18th, 2012, 08:35 GMT 
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Michael Gray is brilliant on Dylan's use of nursery rhyme for under the red sky. Here's a little bit (actually a lot) of him on Handy Dandy - I've cut and pasted it from nellie.

Michael Gray

In Handy Dandy, one of the best tracks on Under the Red Sky, Dylan takes some of the inherently magical language deployed in a nursery rhyme riddle, to which the solution is merely “an egg”, and allows it freer rein on its mystical level. The riddle goes like this:

“In marble walls as white as milk / Lined with a skin as soft as silk / Within a fountain crystal clear / A golden apple doth appear. / No doors there are to this stronghold, / Yet thieves break in and steal the gold.”

Re-occupied by the lyric of Handy Dandy, the numinous charge of this language is retained and extended in Dylan’s:

“He got that clear crystal fountain / He got that soft silky skin / He got that fortress on the mountain / With no doors, no windows so no thieves can break in.”

He does a great thing here. It is the same side to Dylan’s genius that we encounter when, time and again, he takes a phrase from the Bible, cuts to its core and colloquialises it. (In fact there is a biblical connection here: the nursery rhyme itself echoes a passage from Christ’s Sermon on the Mount, as Dylan would certainly have known.

In Matthew 6:19–22, Christ’s words are given as these:

“Lay not up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through and steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.”

This is reiterated more briefly in Luke 12.) Paring the nursery rhyme down from six lines to four, Dylan strips away the old Classical Greekery – the marble walls, the golden apple – and transforms what is left from florid or portentous Victorian formalism into a poetry that combinesmystic potency with the rhythms and cadence of street-talk. So the vicarishly 19th century versifying tone of “Within a fountain crystal clear” is turned around (literally, with the last three words) into the street-smart pretend-inarticulacy of “He got that clear crystal fountain”; the purring poesy of “Lined with a skin as soft as silk” is clipped to the conversational “He got that soft silky skin”; and the conclusion “No doors there are to this stronghold / Yet thieves break in and steal the gold”, with its over-supervising “Yet” and its earthbound explanation for the break-in, is doubly transformed by Dylan:

The stronghold / fortress soars into the mountains, magnifying the scale of the scene and intensifying our sense of the isolation of this unspecified “He”. At the same time - by abolishing the “gold”, by making the break-in feared instead of fact, by increasing the check-list of security provisions and by the effect of that nervy rhythm in describing them (“he got that...he got that...he got that...”, which had been streeteasy before, now echoes as nervily as “no doors, no windows...no thieves”) – by all these touches, Dylan gives his conclusion a modern sensibility, evoking the paranoia at the heart of the re-written scenario, and without one supervisory word pointing up its lonely madness:

“He got that clear crystal fountain / He got that soft silky skin / He got that fortress on the mountain / With no doors, no windows so no thieves can break in.”

While dismantling the riddle of the rhyme, Dylan has given it the mystery of art.

In the same song, he picks up “a basket of flowers” from another nursery rhyme (quoted in discussing the album’s title-song, Under The Red Sky) and he snatches a stick from another riddle, one of the nursery rhyme riddles beginning “Riddle me riddle me ree”: in this case “Riddle me, riddle me ree / A little man in a tree / A stick in his hand / A stone in his throat” / (If you read me this riddle / I’ll give you a groat).

The great nursery rhyme experts Iona and Peter Opie say that a number of riddles have been based on the imagery of “a stick in his hand, a stone in his throat”, the solution being either (as here) a cherry or the hawthorn berry. Dylan drops this in passing, as the marvellously dodgy hero Handy Dandy is chatting someone up with “a stick in his hand and a pocket full of money.” It is one of those admirable, quiet, intelligent achievements of Dylan’s: he slips in this obscure, innocuous quotation; he re-writes it in such a way as to satisfy us by its twisted echo of the original – both catalogue “a stick in his hand” and a something else, and both mention money; and he puts his quotation and his re-write in the service of inventive depiction.

Handy Dandy, an utterly authentic Dylan character, as Paris, Texas as the narrator of Clothes Line Saga, as laconic as Hoagy Carmichael, strolls through this wonderful, good-natured song both enigmatically and cinematically. As he finishes his drink, gets up from the table and says “OK boys I’ll see you tomorrow”, we realise that there’s a final parallel between the riddle-me-ree verse and what Dylan has done with it: the central figure in each demands to be explained. Dylan’s is the better riddle.

The listener’s “Who is this?” goes unanswered, but dissatisfaction is counter-balanced by the sheer pleasure offered by this pay-off line: a fourfold pleasure, coming from savouring the image evoked, the words chosen, the demands these make so gleefully upon the singer’s skill in timing their delivery and Dylan’s absolute success in meeting those demands. All these points, about the pictures you get from the song and about the pleasures of the words and of their high-wire delivery, are met also in this one confidently invented, supremely free-form line: “Sitting with a girl named Nancy in a garden feelin’ kind of lazy”.

The song’s rhythms writhe so enjoyably: the overall framework proceeds at so stately a pace, made the more ocean-linerish by the richness of sound of Dylan’s voice and Al Kooper’s organwork; yet within this Dylan moves so restlessly, so variegatedly, as he surveys his chameleonic hero: one who seems a different person in every brief encounter, so that “he”, “you”, “she” and “Nancy” seem to multiply, giving us refracted passing glimpses of people and conversation, all sunlit for a moment and then gone again, all with their own daubs of obdurate disorder, vulnerability, darkness and hope. Each fragment possesses a different rhythm of speech, to which Dylan’s singing is superbly alert.

Ray Davies or John Sebastian might have devised the line lauded earlier, the luxuriantly unfurling Handy Dandy, sitting with a girl named Nancy in a garden feeling kind of lazy” (either might be the unconscious influence behind it). No-one but Dylan could paint this onto the same canvas as so many other cadences and contrasting modes of speech.

There is the intimate, inquisitorial brevity of the conversation which begins with the nursery rhyme about what little boys and little girls are made of (slugs and snails and puppy-dog tails...sugar and spice and all things nice), adultising it into darker colloquialisms about inner being: “You’ll say “What are you made of ?” / He’ll say “Can you repeat what you say?” / You’ll say “What are you afraid of ?” / He’ll say “Nuthin’: neither ’live nor dead”.” As we “overhear” this drifting across to us on beguiling waves of music, we are not so charmed that we do not pick up the prevarication and bragging on our hero’s part.

It is, furthermore, a moment at which Dylan uses a nursery rhyme from within a fairytale – and uses it brilliantly, to paint in the right psychic backdrop against which to pick out that hollow bragging. The rhyme, the one that begins “Fee, fie, fo, fum / I smell the blood of an Englishman”, is of course spoken by the giant in the fairytale Jack And The Beanstalk. The giant’s next line is the one Dylan so niftily puts into the mouth of Handy Dandy: “Be he ’live or be he dead / I’ll grind his bones to make my bread.” It too proves a hollow boast, of course: the giant loses in the fight with brave little everyman Jack. Dylan echoes that “Be he ’live or be he dead” so closely in Handy Dandy’s “Nuthin’: neither ’live nor dead” that he repeats the slight awkwardness of diction noticeable in the giant’s remark, such that in each case you cannot quite decide whether it’s an overtly foreshortened ‘’live’ or a more slippery half-swallowed “alive”.

There is a further strength and harmony in Dylan’s use of Jack And The Beanstalk, a tale Dylan alluded to in such a different way in 1964’s I Shall Be Free No.10 (and again, in passing, in the phrase “swap that cow” in Tarantula). It contributes to a main theme of the album in being another powerful parable about the need to journey towards maturity, like the fairytale The Goose Girl and the nursery rhyme My Mother Said, which Dylan draws on in his “blind horse” image on the album’s title song. Like them, Jack And The Beanstalk deals with the child’s dilemma caught between its early need for parental love and guidance (“instruction”, in the terminology of the book of Proverbs) and the eventual desirability of trusting oneself and moving towards independence: Jack plays his hunch, charged with the task of taking his cow to market to get a good price; his mother ridicules his folly in swapping the cow for a supposedly magical bean; Jack faces the consequences, and in the end beats the giant. (“What looks large from a distance, close up ain’t never that big”, as Dylan sings elsewhere.) Jack proves wiser than his mother, arguably through faith, centred upon faith in himself. It is a fairytale Bruno Bettelheim scrutinises in detail along these lines in his pioneering book The Uses Of Enchantment, and a classic example of the humane inner importance of the genre.

To return to Dylan’s distinctive dexterity with rhythms and modes of speech, there’s the switch from the calm and patience with which he spreads the child’s comfort-food over the 11 syllables of “Handy Dandy, just like sugar and candy” to the apparent clipped brevity of the line that follows – apparent because this line too is 11 syllables – in which the grown-up’s comfort-food is cynically provided instead: “Handy Dandy: pour ’im another brandy”.

And there is the joyous, acrobatic horde of syllables that comes streaming past us at some point in every verse. As well as lazing around with Nancy (a 24-syllable line, since Dylan makes the word “la-zy” into a lazy “la-za-a-ay”), there is also the technical wizardry of the line in which we get a quick-fire narrative list of what the hero does, ending with the slow drawl of his remark: “He finishes his drink, he gets up from the table, he says “OK boys, I’ll see ya tamarro-o-ow”.” (26 syllables as Dylan delivers it). Best of all, there is the playful self-reflexive joke of the singer having to hurry to fit in the preposterously long “He’ll say “Darlin’ tell me the truth: how much time I got?” She’ll say “You got all the time in the world, honey”.” Imagine anyone but Dylan achieving the necessary timing and phrasing here. Not possible.

For all this audacity, all its refreshing sunlit glimpses – for all its authenticity as a Dylan song – it is one people do not altogether embrace. The chorus is to blame. No-one likes a line such as “Handy Dandy, just like sugar and candy” (partly because of its tiresome tautology). It is there because it is part of the song’s traditional baggage, and Dylan leaves it in because he is feeling kind of lazy.

Handy Dandy is a game and a rhyme. The game is one in which a small object is juggled from hand to hand and then the rhyme is said as you are challenged to guess which hand it is in. The rhyme is one of those which, like Humpty Dumpty, has a Scandinavian equivalent and is of a type that has close equivalents all over north Europe. In some cases what seems a nonsense rhyme in one language (“Jeck og Jill” in Danish) makes sense in another.

Some may result from long oral traditions, others from direct translations. This one is so old that it was already known before the creator of Piers Plowman, William Langland, wrote of “his handidandi” in 1362. Variants include “Handy dandy, riddledy ro / Which hand will you have, high or low?”; “Handy pandy, Sugary candy / Which will you have?” and “Handy-dandy, Jack-a-dandy / Which good hand will you have?”

(There is also a rhyme, not associated with the game, that Pope and Carey alluded to when attacking the syrupy poetry of their contemporary Ambrose Philips: “Handy spandy, Jack-a-Dandy / Loves plum cake and sugar candy / He bought some at a grocer’s shop / And out he came, hop, hop, hop, hop.” A variant begins “Namby pamby Jack-a-Dandy”, and “Namby pamby” was Pope and Carey’s nickname for Philips. Not that these antecedents improve Dylan’s chorus one jot, jot, jot.)

The same rhyme was quoted by George Chapman (now best known for his great translation of Homer) in his play The Blinde Begger of Alexandria in 1598: “handy dandy prickly prandy, which hand will you haue?”, and is referred to in this crucial speech in King Lear, by Lear himself: “Handy dandy, prickly prandy...What, art mad? A man may see how this world goes without eyes” – or, as someone once put it, “you don’t need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows” – “Look with thine ears: see how yond justice rails upon yond simple thief. Hark, in thine ear: change places, and, handy-dandy, which is the justice, which is the thief ?” (Another Dylanesque question, this.)

Lear’s speech here is part of the scene described by Hugh Haughton in The Chatto Book Of Nonsense Poetry as having:

“as vivid a place in the history of nonsense as in that of madness. The dialogue is shot through with queer, garbled, oracular language, and shifts back and forth between reason and madness, pathos and absurdity. It’s not only the most vivid representation of the fool in literature, but in its vision of violent social upheaval and broken authority suggests that through the language of madness and adopted madness the characters make touch with truths and feelings outside the pale of their normal language. What they say in their terrible crisis makes sense...but it takes a route that zigzags giddily across the border with nonsense.”

Stripped of the Shakespearean tragedy’s pain, more Edward Lear than King Lear, Dylan’s Handy Dandy too gives us broken sound-bites that make no sense yet make perfect sense, and glimpses of characters who challenge each other with crazy truths, as it takes us on a route that zigzags giddily across the border with nonsense. The discomforting banality of its chorus aside, it is a sustained, successful work in which well-hewn writing interlocks with a bravura vocal performance, making for a warm, humourous – often black-humourous – hymn of celebration to human quirkiness and flexibility.


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 Post subject: Re: Summer Listening Challenge pt27 Under the Red Sky
PostPosted: Sat August 18th, 2012, 14:11 GMT 
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bobfan wrote:
First Bob album I bought at the time of its release so I was listening without prejudice and... I really like it.


Mine too. I remember buying this on tape in Asda and being a bit emmbarassed because the cover had this old man on it! When I got home and played it my life changed forever in that moment. I just could not believe what I was listening to. Who was this guy? Music at the time did not sound anything like this. It had whimsy, humour, indignation, imagination, lust and such a refreshingly strange and all encompassing world view.
The music is really accessible. Those superstar players, Elton et al, made it sound so rich so sweet, like sugar and candy! I loved the charcters; The little boy and the little girl, Handy Dandy with his all girl orchestra who can hit it, Back ally Sally doing the American jump, 10000 women spilling his buttermilk, The man in the moon. I know these guys.
I listened to it constantly untill the following weekend when I went to the big HMV in Leeds and bought Blonde on Blonde, Oh Mercy and The Bootleg series which had just come out. That was a good weekend. :D
Having now traversed the many peaks and troughs of Dylan's recordings I understand that UTRS is a relatively minor work. This is only in relation to the truley exalted company that it keeps. I can never agree with Harmonica Albert that the lyrics are inane Or that it's delusional to not see that the nursery rhyme tag as damning and pejorative. Really? I too was chuffed when Mr Grey showed the folly of this in song and dance man - thanks Trev.

So not one of his best then but still good enough change my life, to make me ask myself 10000 questions and to recruit at least a couple of life long bobfans in Liverpool and Leeds.


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 Post subject: Re: Summer Listening Challenge pt27 Under the Red Sky
PostPosted: Sat August 18th, 2012, 15:22 GMT 
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I hated it the first time I heard it. I was working far from home and maybe could only hear it in the car so I bought a cassette and was stuck listening to it in order. This was the second of the aural shock records where I couldn't believe how bad the voice sounded. That continued until MT. I guess it's deliberate and Dylan wants to be Howlin' Wolf without the power.

The producer did very well and the cameos are almost all successful so the critics were completely full of themselves when they complained. I guess their thought was Dylan was covering up for his lack of strong material. How little it matters now.

Wiggle was way better live than on the record. Same goes for the title track although Georgie boy has a very nice cameo (I can't defend baked in a pie, never understood that lyric). Unbelievable was like son of Trouble although I'm a bit more sympathetic with it the past few years. Born to Time is a lousy Dylan vocal with a great studio band and the song is lyrically strong at times and horrible at other times (striped and plain? yikes that's bad). TV Song is the worst Dylan song conceit since License to Kill. 10,000 Men was so bizarre that I missed its musical charm which is the slop blues rhythm done perfect. 2x2 seemed way too silly after the lovely beginning but now it's a favorite, kind of a barbed elegy to the 60's seekers. God Knows was a strong track that got better live. Handy Dandy is one of those minor masterpieces a la Went to See the Gypsy (I hope Roll on John reaches this high). Cat in the Well is almost too cryptic, like the whole Oh Mercy record rolled up in one song. In summary, a soul in travail, no surprise that the next studio record was TooM many years later.


Last edited by henrypussycat on Sat August 18th, 2012, 15:31 GMT, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Summer Listening Challenge pt27 Under the Red Sky
PostPosted: Sat August 18th, 2012, 15:26 GMT 
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aintnoprophet wrote:
Johanna Parker wrote:
I think it was a record he made for his kid. It's dedicated to his daughter, who was four at the time, and it has all those nursery rhyme references.


I never fully bought this theory tbh. Do you know if he ever confirmed it?


I guess not. It wasn't public knowledge at the time that he had remarried and become a father again. The (nickname) dedication is there on the inner sleeve (or CD booklet) of the record.


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 Post subject: Re: Summer Listening Challenge pt27 Under the Red Sky
PostPosted: Sat August 18th, 2012, 15:49 GMT 
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Johanna Parker wrote:
I guess not. It wasn't public knowledge at the time that he had remarried and become a father again. The (nickname) dedication is there on the inner sleeve (or CD booklet) of the record.


Thanks. I'm aware of the dedication and, undoubtedly, he plays around with nursery rhymes and stuff a lot; nonetheless, I always felt that these songs, tongue-in-cheek as they are, are not really children's songs you'd play for your four-year old. But after all it's Bob, so who knows ... :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Summer Listening Challenge pt27 Under the Red Sky
PostPosted: Sat August 18th, 2012, 15:52 GMT 
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aintnoprophet wrote:
Johanna Parker wrote:
I guess not. It wasn't public knowledge at the time that he had remarried and become a father again. The (nickname) dedication is there on the inner sleeve (or CD booklet) of the record.


Thanks. I'm aware of the dedication and, undoubtedly, he plays around with nursery rhymes and stuff a lot; nonetheless, I always felt that these songs, tongue-in-cheek as they are, are not really children's songs you'd play for your four-year old. But after all it's Bob, so who knows ... :wink:


Possibly it started out as one thing and turned into another; it's certainly no kids record.


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 Post subject: Re: Summer Listening Challenge pt27 Under the Red Sky
PostPosted: Sat August 18th, 2012, 17:06 GMT 
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Never paid much attention to this one although I do force myself through it from time to time to see if it gets better with age.

"Wiggle Wiggle" – 2:09
"Under the Red Sky" – 4:09
"Unbelievable" – 4:06
"Born in Time" – 3:39
"T.V. Talkin' Song" – 3:02
"10,000 Men" – 4:21
"2 X 2" – 3:36
"God Knows" – 3:02
"Handy Dandy" – 4:03
"Cat's in the Well" – 3:21

TV Talkin' is good fun and God Knows used to sizzle hot in concert.
Got to see 10,000 Men in RI, which looked better on the set list than it really was live.
Got EXTREMELY burnt out on Cat's In The Well live, to the point where I feel inner disappointment when he plays it (similar to my feelings at at a show when Leopard or RDW come at you as an opener for the zillionth time with the same arrangement). I smile and try not to drag anyone else into the hole I'm in with those.

I guess that Under The Red Sky in near the bottom of my Dylan barrel.


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 Post subject: Re: Summer Listening Challenge pt27 Under the Red Sky
PostPosted: Sat August 18th, 2012, 18:05 GMT 
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Question: Do those of you who dislike UTRS also dislike CITH? And vice versa - do those who are supportive of UTRS enjoy CITH as well?

I'm asking because I see a certain similarity between these two ...


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 Post subject: Re: Summer Listening Challenge pt27 Under the Red Sky
PostPosted: Sat August 18th, 2012, 18:44 GMT 
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aintnoprophet wrote:
Johanna Parker wrote:
I guess not. It wasn't public knowledge at the time that he had remarried and become a father again. The (nickname) dedication is there on the inner sleeve (or CD booklet) of the record.


Thanks. I'm aware of the dedication and, undoubtedly, he plays around with nursery rhymes and stuff a lot; nonetheless, I always felt that these songs, tongue-in-cheek as they are, are not really children's songs you'd play for your four-year old. But after all it's Bob, so who knows ... :wink:


henrypussycat wrote:
Possibly it started out as one thing and turned into another; it's certainly no kids record.


No, it's not a kids' record as such, but then when you read up on the use of nursery rhymes, fairy tales and the like, you'll find that for the longest time they were used for the entertainment of both adults and kids. The part dealing with this was one of the most insightful for me in Michael Gray's Song & Dance Man III.


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 Post subject: Re: Summer Listening Challenge pt27 Under the Red Sky
PostPosted: Sat August 18th, 2012, 19:08 GMT 
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aintnoprophet wrote:
Question: Do those of you who dislike UTRS also dislike CITH? And vice versa - do those who are supportive of UTRS enjoy CITH as well?

I'm asking because I see a certain similarity between these two ...


Yes we differtiate. For me CITH is mostly terrible - cept Love me Santa vid - but UTRS rocks.

If not for anything else for the lyric:

Your mind is your temple keep it beautiful and free, don't let an egg get laid in it by somthing by something you can't see.

Love that.


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 Post subject: Re: Summer Listening Challenge pt27 Under the Red Sky
PostPosted: Sat August 18th, 2012, 19:26 GMT 
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aintnoprophet wrote:
Question: Do those of you who dislike UTRS also dislike CITH? And vice versa - do those who are supportive of UTRS enjoy CITH as well?

I'm asking because I see a certain similarity between these two ...


I don't hear any similarity at all. As in NONE.


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 Post subject: Re: Summer Listening Challenge pt27 Under the Red Sky
PostPosted: Sat August 18th, 2012, 19:33 GMT 
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man in the moon wrote:
Yes we differtiate. For me CITH is mostly terrible - cept Love me Santa vid - but UTRS rocks.

If not for anything else for the lyric:

Your mind is your temple keep it beautiful and free, don't let an egg get laid in it by somthing by something you can't see.


Thanks for replying.
And hey, naturally you love UTRS - you're the Man in the Moon! Two full verses on there are dedicated to you! :lol:

More opinions are welcome. :D



henrypussycat wrote:
I don't hear any similarity at all. As in NONE.


Well, I do.

(Nice talking to you.)


Last edited by aintnoprophet on Sat August 18th, 2012, 19:37 GMT, edited 1 time in total.

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