Expecting Rain

Ive just recently bought and listened to, for the first time the "John Wesley Harding" album. So far i am loving the fast-tempo beat , and beautiful harmonica playing by Bob....but boy..have some of the lyrics got me beat

Can someone enlighten me as too what songs such as "the wicked messenger", "drifters escape" and particularly "the ballad of frankie lee and judas priest" are about? The delivery of the lyrics by Bob appear to be quite layed back, but i sense there is alot of meaning in them. Are they bible based?

As i believe John wesly harding is a bibel based album,

so the songs are related to people storys from the bibel,
e.g " i dreamt i saw st. Augusten"

such as "the ballad of franky lee and judas priest" is kinda like a story with a morrel like you would get in the bibel,

someone posted here previously that this album was influenced by W Blake, can't remember who, but if 'who' reads this, or anyone else who knows, please enlighten us, I also would be interested.

Don

These are my opinions but heres what i think

The Wicked Messenger could describing an autistic person (definate bibical reference)

Drifters Escape could be describing someones hardship in getting to heaven.

Frankie lee and Judas Priest could be a ballad about one of two friends that had a good life and something came in to one of their lives and overtook it and results in death.

i dont know these are just some things i got out of the songs

"the moral of this story
the moral of this song
is simply that one
should never be
where one does not belong

so when you see your brother
carrying something
help him with his load
and don't go mistakin' paradise
for that home across the road"


Isn't that the last verse of Frankee Lee etc.? Great lines. A good example of Dylan talking and advising like he is God, one of many possible examples. Though this is not the most dramatic example of this tendency in some of his writing, it is a good one and gives weight to those who saw/see Dylan in some sort of prohet-like aura and are the very same people Dylan complains the most about in his book: people taking
him seriously as God or God-connected; I personally would only go so far as to say he certainly ONE of the gods(so are you, no big deal)

LoveMinus2: Check out what louie_the_king said about it. An excellent summary.



Chrome Horse: You're right those last two stanzas are defintely some good advice. Especially the last one, it reminds me of Jesus.

thanks Jim, sounds interesting.

Jim, thank you, glad you agree. Again, these lyrics sound like something out of the bible, and easily show why many fans look at Dylan as some sort of prophet. And this is the same guy who fought and struggled to get to the top of the heap in his field; was not dragged kicking and screaming; and once getting there, tells us: boy does this suck! From "Idiot Winds"; "You'll find out when reach the top, you're on the bottom!".

I think the King James edition of the Bible (ie the classic English language text) played a big part in the writing of 'John Wesley Harding'. It's hard to know if Dylan was really deeply into the spiritual side of it at the time or if he used it as a springboard to create characters and tales. It's said that during his time of seclusion up in Woodstock, he had an old Bible up on a lecturn, from which he would read daily. Dylan has drawn inspiration from the Bible throughout his career, of course.

Speaking personally, 'JWH' strikes me and moves me in a very spiritual way. It has a rather 'puritanical' feel but the yearning for redemption that comes through on songs like 'I Dreamed I Saw St. Augustine' and 'Dear Landlord' is very touching. Whatever it all means, I know I love this album.

I've always thought 'The Wicked Messenger' to be about Jesus. He came from Eli, and his mind 'multiplied the smallest matter' (i.e. even in everyday life you have to consider your actions and morally judge them and always try to do the right thing). 'His tongue that could not speak but only flatter' may refer to Jesus' message of love and his refusal of violence or to judge people. The second verse may be about Jesus staying close to the people and speaking a lot with them ('stayed behind the assembly hall'). I don't see how 'the souls of my feet I swear they're burning' could fit in to this picture, but perhaps someone else has an idea. The final verse is the ultimate reaction to Jesus' message of love; people only want to hear what they like; they don't want to be criticized. Jesus' message was confronting and thus, 'if ye cannot bring good news then don't bring any'.

The title of this thread reminds me of something. The lyrics on this album, and many others, are INTENDED TO ENLIGHTEN PEOPLE IN SOME WAYS. Of course, that's a pretty tall order and a huge undertaking. It's also something Dylan has never admitted to. In attempting to pull off the most challenging task on earth, Mr. Dylan always tells us that his songs are best explained by others, that he is not the one to tell us what they mean. "I know it looks like I'm tryng to reduce some of the hate in the world, but really, I'm just a song and dance man".

"wicked Messeger" is Satan, not jesus. I'm pretty sure.

I've noted the link between the songs on Bob's greatest album and the Romantic poet William Blake several times here and elsewhere, but this is not necessarily my original perspective. I've been reading Blake closely (32 years) almost as long as I've been listening to Bob (42 years), so spotting affinities between them has been part of my appreciation of both artists.

However, in conversation with Allen Ginsberg, he told me that Bob specifically spoke to him at length and with great passion and curiosity about Blake around the time of JWH (and like an idiot, I only notice now that the abbreviated title resembles JahWeH--live and learn), especially Songs of Innocence and Experience.

My recommendation would be to buy Blake's Complete Poems in either the Penguin Classics or Oxford Classics edition--you will cherish the book the rest of your life. Blake's poems are sometimes strange and obscure, other times almost mindlessly simple--he boasted that children appreciated his poems best--but the depth of vision and originality put him among the very greatest writers in English. The places to start reading with Bob Dylan in mind would be Blake's prose poem THE MARRIAGE OF HEAVEN AND HELL and SONGS OF INNOCENCE AND EXPERIENCE.

MARRIAGE is a bold visionary statement, and the "Proverbs of Hell" section is probably the most influential passage. The direct expression and concise imagery were among the factors that caused Bob to simplify his own writing technique post-1966.

In the SONGS, "London" is probably the greatest lyric, but "The Tyger" "The Chimney Sweep" "Little Lamb" and many others show an economy of expression and a lyric force that have influenced Dylan's songcraft. Many of these have been put to music by Ginsberg, Vaughan Williams, William Bolcomb, and other composers and musicians.

Blake is not the only influence on Dylan--Hank Williams is just as important to JWH in many ways--but Blake/Dylan make a good comparative study, as the former was the rebel supreme of his time, maybe of all time, and among the most original artists who have ever lived. Most of the superlatives people throw around about Bob Dylan overstate the case, but Blake really is that great and important, and his influence has only grown since his relatively obscure life and death.

On JWH, the three verse structure to the songs, the concise character studies and narratives in Drifter's Escape, Lonesome Hobo, Wicked Messenger and All Along the Watchtower show Dylan at his most powerfully poetic level of songwriting.

Oh, help me in my weakness I heard the drifter say
As they carried him from the court room and were taking him away
My trip has been a pleasant one, and my time it isn't long
And I still do not know what it was that I've done wrong

These lines follow a basic seven beat poetic measure, with a rest in the first line and some unstressed syllabic compression in the second. The third and fourth lines follow the fourteen syllable, seven stress form most closely, but still vary from a strict iambic rhythm.

Blake commonly used this poetic form in two ways--as a standard ballad lyric form of four/three/four/three with shorter lines, and as the longer seven stress line in his visionary poems like "Visions of the Daughters of Albion." Bob does the same thing--Gates of Eden is in the longer format, as is Tangled Up In Blue, while JWH songs are often printed in the ballad lyric form.

Anway, those are some of the affinities between Blake and Dylan. You'll find many on your own, I'm sure. Some of the relationship comes through Bob's relation to Ginsberg and the Beats, in addition to Bob's own study and interest.

Van Morrison is another big Blake fan.

Hope that helps.

Wow,
Fantastic post h Albert, plenty of interesting stuff here.

I have ‘songs of Innocence and Experience’; I also bought ‘Milton’ and then the Oxford ‘Complete works’

I became interested in Blake after reading Peter Ackroyd’s biography, although I don’t have the education to understand the ‘form’ of poetry.

I feel held back from understanding Blakes ‘Mythology’, do you think ‘William Blake’ and ‘The Human Face of God’, both by Kathleen Raine would assist me?

Don

In 1967-1968 Bob was trying to get away from all the people that were demanding moral and spiritual guidance from him, and always asking him “what is your message?â€￾

At that time he would not have written a song that ended by announcing “the moral of this song is...â€￾ unless he was joking.

Imagine your parents, or pastor, saying this:

“One should never be where one does not belong. When you see your neighbor carrying something, help him with his load. And don't go mistaking Paradise for that home across the road.â€￾

It sounds totally lame--probably the tritest platitudes he could think of. That’s Bob’s little joke on all the people that keep asking “What is your message?â€￾ It’s the same as saying “Keep a clear head and always carry a light bulb.â€￾

Pin, I don't agree wth you. There is a lot of stuff he did that may be tongue in cheek, but this album is pretty serious all the way through. This was also the first album after the bike accident and the recluse period; a brush with death is a natural time for this type of thinking. And remember, this is a guy who wants it both ways all the time: adore me but keep away, this is some of the greatest stuff ever written but don't expect me to explain why.

We can't expect to agree on everything; I hear lots of jokes in JWH.

Maybe he was serious up until the last verse, but there's no way Bob could ever say "The moral of this song is..." and follow it with anything serious.

Don't get me wrong, I think we should all help our neighbor with his load, and so forth. I've heard that all my life from parents, teachers, preachers, etc. But it's not profound, and just because Bob says it doesn't make it profound (as he well knew).

I think Pinhedz is on to something. When does Dylan just come right out at the end of a song and say what the moral of it is and when does he go around giving advice or commandments to follow?

"..that one should never be
Where one does not belong."
-- is actually poor advice as a general rule.

"...Help him with his load..."
-- is good advice but is what many others have said many times.

"And don't go mistaking Paradise
For that home across the road."
-- is a little more interesting, but nothing new or profound.

The story and "phraseology" is interesting and there's a couple parts I especially like and have remembered often:

"But you'd better hurry up and choose
Which of those bills you want,
Before they all disappear
I'm gonna start my pickin' right now..."
-- sort of comical imagining the scene.

"What kind of house is this," he said,
"Where I have come to roam?"
-- he goes over there in a few minutes the phrase come to roam is an interesting stretch. Come to roam generally involves a long time to get there.

Another thing to note about the lesson "...help him with his load..." is that--even though it's a nice thought--there is nothing in the song that leads to that lesson. The "moral" comes out of nowhere.

Somewhere in the back of Bob's mind--maybe not even consciously--there might be a loose parallel between Frankie & Judas and that old classic "Frankie & Johnnie." In Jimmie Rogers' version, the last verse of "Frankie and Johnnie" goes like this:

This story has no moral,
This story has no end,
The only Thing this story goes to show
is there ain't no good in men.

...and that lyric was meant as a joke.

Pin, you make good points, no doubt about it. So now, I' so freakin confused I'm a gonna go see my shrink and see what kind of words he can say!

Another thing maybe, which supports Pinedz's comments. The song oozes with sarcasm. At least it sounds that way to me.

It's a preposterous tale with proposterous wording, even the guitar sounds backwords or funny, delivered with a sarcastic voice all the way through.

That's what I love about it!

After listening to the songs alot over the past few days, I think pinheadz (and Jim about the sarcasm) is correct. I believe the song or itleast "the point" (if i dare call it that) of it ends with the verse:

"No one tried to say a thing
When they took him out in jest,
Except, of course, the little neighbor boy
Who carried him to rest.
And he just walked along, alone,
With his guilt so well concealed,
And muttered underneath his breath,
"Nothing is revealed."

Unfortuantley i have no idea how this verse relates to the context of the song..Can someone explain?

To me that part adds on to the general feeling of mystery and unrealness of the song.

The line "Nothing is revealed" was noted in a piece about the song I read a long time ago, but I can't remember what was said about that line. I think it was a line used somewhere else, or it might have been a biblical reference.

As far has how that part relates to the context of the song, it's easy. The song is a story. It has a beginning, some middle parts, and THAT part is the end of the story. The story ends when Frankie dies and they take him out and bury him.

Then of course, following the story is a little bit of moralizing.

That's a tall order.

Poets are always distressed when readers ask them to explain what they meant to say. That’s because the poem itself was the poet’s best attempt to say it. When someone asks “what does it mean?â€￾ that’s the same as telling the poet he failed to be meaningful in the poem. The only way to answer the question is to say that the poem is all there is--it means what it is. Or, if it’s Bob answering the question, he’ll say something like “always carry a lightbulb.â€￾

When people try to explain Bob’s words in their own words, it always turns it into something ordinary. My reaction is “Is that all he meant? Then why didn’t he just say it that way?â€￾ If he didn’t say it that way, maybe that’s because it’s not what he meant. Maybe we need to just let him say it the way he said it, and settle for that.

There is also something called “word salad,â€￾ which means a jumble of words and phrases without coherence or meaning. Word salad--in the hands of a master--can sound really cool. If you can’t understand a song lyric, it might just be word salad. I can’t always tell the difference between poetry that’s over my head and word salad.