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PostPosted: Fri September 23rd, 2011, 12:21 GMT 
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Eunuch painting
http://www.magnumphotos.com/C.aspx?VP3= ... &CT=Search
http://www.gagosian.com/exhibitions/201 ... /images/6/


MR DYLAN--- Y U NO PAINT OWN IMPRESSIONS?


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PostPosted: Fri September 23rd, 2011, 12:56 GMT 
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I call this one, "After Bob Dylan"


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PostPosted: Fri September 23rd, 2011, 13:00 GMT 
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Johanna Parker wrote:

You think they're gonna pull it? :shock:


I think that's a possibility, dependent on

1) Whether the story escapes the ER bubble and gets media attention and

2)Whether the copyright holders sue or not.


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PostPosted: Fri September 23rd, 2011, 13:02 GMT 
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Uh-oh....


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PostPosted: Fri September 23rd, 2011, 13:28 GMT 
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As I had a couple of questions about the Obama "Hope" poster lawsuit and its outcome, the Wikipedia article is accurate in its description...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Oba ... %22_poster

In brief, the poster is an image of Barack Obama "designed" by artist Shepard Fairey. The image was quite popular, especially during the US presidential election, and a version was acquired by the Smithsonian for its collection. Fairey claimed to have sold/given away over 300,000 copies of the poster itself, and the image was used on t-shirts, buttons and more.

A blogger later revealed that the poster was based on an Associated Press photograph by freelance photographer Mannie Garcia. The AP -- which held the copyright -- entered into negotiations with Fairey, claiming infringement in a press release, but he took a first-strike position and sued the AP, claiming his poster was protected by the "fair use" doctrine. Various suits and counter-suits ensued, with the photographer entering the fray, contending that he retained copyright to the photo according to his AP contract. and he did not "condone people taking things, just because they can, off the Internet." :lol:

The AP and Fairey eventually settled out of court. The terms remain confidential. It remains an open question whether Fairey would have won the case based on the "fair use" argument.


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PostPosted: Fri September 23rd, 2011, 13:54 GMT 
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Location: in the land where dreams are made....
I don't care what they call it, the paintings look wonderful.... easily the best that he has done so far. First, using a photo for as a source is not unheard of.... and it is not so easy as some seem to imply here. I know I have done it..... it is not like he traced something.........you have to work it all out to increase the size (it seems many of those paintings are really big) and then he has added the color and the shading to make them so much more than the photo......... Lastly..... as the song says "He was never known To make a foolish move", at least not for years now........ he has moved thru the mist and I have heard some rubblings of various lawsuits that have never come to the surface (none about his art)........ I am sure his dealings can keep quite a team of lawyers quite busy.... so does anyone here think that we at ER are so much smarter than his team of lawyers? Does anyone really think none of this has come up in the offices of Dylan's NYC lawyers..........? Now all that said..... thanks for the links, I am going back out and look at paintings and anticipate my new catalogue's arrival... :D


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PostPosted: Fri September 23rd, 2011, 14:49 GMT 
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Word is now that the catalogue will not be available from the gallery at all, but only via their online shop.


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PostPosted: Fri September 23rd, 2011, 15:07 GMT 
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Location: in the land where dreams are made....
I went out and was looking at some of the links .... and then followed a link to a link to a link.... and ended up here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/24443965@N ... 882959896/

I am not really sure this has anything to do with the paintings, but there is just some really fun images out there to look at and I thought maybe someone here might enjoy...........

I love when Dylan's work takes me somewhere that I would not have gone otherwise.....

This is one of the pics of the series link above..... It was originally a black and white pic taken somewhere between 1905 and 1915.... in black and white and then the color was added..... and if you read thru the detail it would have been a very small glass print that they were working on.... like 2" x 3"..... they painted it with small .... very tiny.... brushes...... amazing.........even if a bit crazy....

http://www.flickr.com/photos/24443965@N ... 296350093/


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PostPosted: Fri September 23rd, 2011, 17:05 GMT 

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To interested parties posting on "The Asia Series" discussion boards. I found this comment thread via the stats page on my Flickr Account. My Asian photostream had gotten quite a few hits from this discussion board, so I checked things out to see why.

Imagine my surprise to see at least FIVE or SIX Dylan paintings on the Gallery walls that appear to have been painted from photographs in my personal collection (the originals still in my possession), and posted by me to FLICKr. In any case, the images shown in the Gallery examples all appear to be "derivative works" based on vintage photographs (owned, posted, or published by myself and others), and not on any photos of his own creation while in Asia.

Also note that the images in question are based on commercial prints and glass slides from the 19th and early-20th Century, and more than one photo was made at that time. However, the fact that so many of them appear in the few Gallery shots provided seems to say that the odds point to the five or six in question being appropriated from my "one source" Flickr archive.

The catalog has about 100 pages. I would be curious to see ALL of the exhibition paintings. For the moment, seeing the amount of paintings based on my posted images in just the few Gallery shots offered, I suspect many more, and am left wondering if Dylan "raided" my easy-access Flickr pages and Asian Sets as a one-stop shopping spot for photos on which to base his paintings.

If so, and in his defense, all of the original Asian Photos I own and have posted are PUBLIC DOMAIN images. Their appearance on my photostream comes with automatic "Creative Commons" permission for anyone to use them for decorative or illustrative Blog and Website use, AND for conversion to artworks or other craft interpretations. Thousands of people have already done that, including many like Dylan who converted the photos of nice paintings.

However, while Dylan had broken no laws, he seems to have violated a common "social ethic" that for most of us in the graphics world involves giving credit for sources of inspiration, or direct credit for material upon which a "derivative work" is based. As I have not seen the catalog or any fine print contained therein (which might credit his inspirational source-images), I will cease comment on the nebulous concept of "ethics" and "uncredited appropriations"

From My Flickr Asian Sets, seen in Dylan's GAGOSIAN GALLERY examples :

(1) http://www.flickr.com/photos/24443965@N08/2358252690/

(2) http://www.flickr.com/photos/24443965@N08/3450980225/

(3) http://www.flickr.com/photos/24443965@N08/3475403988/

(4) http://www.flickr.com/photos/24443965@N08/2401941303/

(5) http://www.flickr.com/photos/24443965@N08/3492941386/

(6) http://www.flickr.com/photos/24443965@N08/3000702662/ (This Priest is common, and can be found elsewhere, as well)


Thanks to all for your discussion about this. I await the catalog !

--- Okinawa Soba http://www.flickr.com/photos/24443965@N08/


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PostPosted: Fri September 23rd, 2011, 17:30 GMT 
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Quote:
Welcome! A representative will be with you shortly. For your security, do not give out your credit card number or other sensitive personal data during a Live Chat session.
You are now chatting with Sarah (from Getty Images).
Ando: Hello
Sarah: Hello!  How can I help you today?
Ando: Just wondering about how copyright would apply to a painting based on an image in your bank -
Sarah: You'll need to purchase a license based on the end-use of the painting/derivative work. So if you're going to sell the painting, you need a retail license...All of the images on our site are copyrighted and require permission from their copyright holder in order to use in any way...The license you'll need to purchase represents the rights to use the image as granted by the copyright holder.
Ando: So if a photo is in your bank, it's not in the public domain?
Sarah: Correct. Nothing on our site is public domain. If you have not budgeted for licensing an image, I would recommend looking on another site, because none of the images on our site are free to use.


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PostPosted: Fri September 23rd, 2011, 18:01 GMT 
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Okinawa Soba wrote:

However, while Dylan had broken no laws, he seems to have violated a common "social ethic"...


Welcome to Bob Dylan's world, Soba-san


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PostPosted: Fri September 23rd, 2011, 18:05 GMT 
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Fred@Dreamtime wrote:
Welcome to Bob Dylan's world, Soba-san

Fred, you were saying that
Quote:
as to the photos, it may be indicative that so far all -- with the possible exception of "Opium," I haven't checked that out -- have been imagery from photobanks such as Magnum and Getty, and all available for licensing. I suspect that's why (at least so far) we haven't seen a protest from the copyright holders of the original photos.
But just because the photos are available for licensing, why is that less of an issue if hasn't purchased the rights to them?


Last edited by AndoDoug on Fri September 23rd, 2011, 18:16 GMT, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri September 23rd, 2011, 18:05 GMT 

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Image

Notable, in light of "Love and Theft," that the men in this image are Yakuza.

http://blog.magnumphotos.com/2008/11/di ... sters.html


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PostPosted: Fri September 23rd, 2011, 18:14 GMT 
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Okinawa Soba wrote:
Imagine my surprise to see at least FIVE or SIX Dylan paintings on the Gallery walls that appear to have been painted from photographs in my personal collection (the originals still in my possession), and posted by me to FLICKr.
Welcome aboard and thanks for sharing. I was one of those who came upon your flickr account - a link was posted to the photo "JAPANESE PACK-HORSE REFUSES TO BUDGE -- Ruins a Perfectly Good Shot of Mt. Fuji" pic. As an ex ex-pat of Nippon, I'm really enjoying your witty photo commentaries. Cheers.
Fred@Dreamtime wrote:
Welcome to Bob Dylan's world, Soba-san
Indeed this is part of a much broader, ongoing dialogue about Dylan's penchant for (sneaky) appropriation.


Last edited by AndoDoug on Fri September 23rd, 2011, 18:27 GMT, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri September 23rd, 2011, 18:19 GMT 
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AndoDoug wrote:
Fred@Dreamtime wrote:
Welcome to Bob Dylan's world, Soba-san

Fred, you were saying that "as to the photos, it may be indicative that so far all -- with the possible exception of "Opium," I haven't checked that out -- have been imagery from photobanks such as Magnum and Getty, and all available for licensing. I suspect that's why (at least so far) we haven't seen a protest from the copyright holders of the original photos. But just because the photos are available for licensing, why is that less of an issue if he is selling paintings based on copyright protected photos that he (likely) hasn't purchased the rights to?


You misunderstand me. What I'm saying is that since the Getty/Magnum images are available for licensing, it's possible that Mr. D., or more properly, his offices, did license the works so he could use them. It's also quite possible that the license arrangement was set up so that the original work didn't need to be credited. I don't know one way or the other, I'm speculating. The "Opium" image, btw, was produced in 1915 and is probably out of copyright. Okinawa Soba's fascinating post above (and thank you for that, Okinawa, my earlier facetious comment aside) also indicates that whoever gathered the photos for Mr. D. quite deliberately went after many that were public domain or at least defensibly public domain.

I'm still researching, but I speculate many of the Magnum/Getty images were originally published in Life, a magazine that if you think about it, Dylan has referenced many times in many different ways. If so, the Vietnam Life image seems to be a deliberate pointer to those obsessives, such as yours truly :lol: willing to follow the trail.


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PostPosted: Fri September 23rd, 2011, 18:54 GMT 
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Good post Fred...... Why do people assume that he did it wrong.... when the odds are on that he did it right.....

Before the recent concert in Texas, I looked around and had a reality check as I looked at the big crowd..... we talk about this man so casually here on line that I think I had lost track of the fact that he is a very big deal..... he is BIG business..... there are millions of people around the world aware of his work and waiting for the next new item that he puts out.... be it music, books or art............ There are many, many that are more than ready to take apart everything he does......... and his lawyers know it ................ and I would not think that they went to who ever to say "Hey, Bob Dylan wants to use your photos"..... he has corporations that own corporations..... and lawyers that check on lawyers .......so some corporation gets whatever they need to use the images........ and lastly the man himself is not some silly goose ........... I will very surprised if they don't have this covered. Before he would show his work at the first Drawn Blank show he sent his manager out to find someone that was an expert in the art field to check things out............. That expert is the same one at the gallery showing these latest works.......... I am sure many have heard the phrase tempest in a teapot......... except we ain't big enough to be considered a teapot.... we just a little demitass set.


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PostPosted: Fri September 23rd, 2011, 20:06 GMT 

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In Reply to FRED and ANDO'S comments above...

Every time I see a "Getty Image" used and credited on line, it is a modern image still under copyright, with the photographer still living, or licensed by the photographer's heir(s) and their Estate. Getty (and other such photo services) do a good job of managing these images for the Artists in question.

If what Ando reports is true, and Getty holds the rights to "derivative works" of copyrighted works under their management, Dylan will have a legal case against him if he didn't go through the proper steps.

As already mentioned, in my own case, the raw images behind the Flickr posts he accessed and used are all out of copyright, and passed into the Public Domain. What I have done for Flickr is re-crop portions of the originals (a tell-tale, invisible "tag" that Dylan's paintings follow, as he maintains my crops, and in no case includes more of the image content than I provide to everyone on Flickr). Beyond that, I did extensive restoration and "clean up" for those like himself who want a fine photograph to Blog or interpret. However, unlike Dylan, most who do use the images from my posted archive send a courteous note, or give credit as a matter of civility (again, neither of which is legally required, but is always appreciated).

The deeper problem is one of deception. This quote from WALL STREET JOURNAL review of the exhibition says it all :

"......The Asia Series is being billed as a visual journal of Dylan’s travels in Japan, China, Vietnam and Korea and it
characterizes his on-the-scene depictions of people, street scenes, architecture and landscapes. The works can be
easily identified by title and specific details, including “Mae Ling,” “Cockfight,” “The Bridge” and “Hunan Province.”
Other creations — “Big Brother” and “Opium,” among them — have a greater cryptic quality......"

http://i1.exhibit-e.com/gagosian/Friedm ... _19_11.pdf

The unabashed implication that this is a record of Dylan's OWN "visual journal", and displays his OWN "on-the-scene" depictions is as far from the truth as anyone can get, and gives him false credit for being photographer, artist, and the creative eye behind the nice compositions.

Yes, Dylan has a fine sense of what makes a worthy image, his painted interpretations are nice, and I appreciate the time and talent it took to transpose and "interpret" the works. But, as it stands now, as evidenced by what Dylan and the Gallery are implying to the mainstream media who are reviewing his exhibition, the deception of misplaced, hidden, and ignored credit for the REAL photographers (and public domain sources) behind his work is a smear on those who either, photograph, preserve, or provide these images.

As for me, I will accept Dylan's interpretation of my meager Flickr posts a back-handed complement of sorts, happy that he liked my own choices culled from my archive boxes of old slides and prints, and leaving me with the ability to tell my friends and neighbors (who could care less) that, "....Hey! Bob Dylan really liked my Flickr Pics!...Check out this Exhibition Catalog!...Cool !...Hey, I wonder if he want's to buy my originals !?....NO?...OK...well, maybe he can sign my catalog !....." :?

--- Okinawa Soba


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PostPosted: Fri September 23rd, 2011, 21:20 GMT 
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Hey, in all of this we forgot..... Okinawa Soba, welcome to Expecting Rain.......... where are you from? ........are you a Dylan fan........or don't you follow him at all? ........... Are you a photographer by trade? You will have to keep in contact with us and let us know how this all plays out.......... I guess it might just up your profile ......which I would hope will be a good thing..... . :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri September 23rd, 2011, 21:24 GMT 

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I posted the wiki thing, because I thought someone would read it and understand it, but it seems like no one is too interested in art- and taking things from other places is common and probably unavoidable (i can't copy write any inspiration I have), but it seems like people are very interested in scandal, and crimes that may have been committed, and lawyers, and collecting catalogs- i don't get it, I thought you might be interested in something else.


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PostPosted: Fri September 23rd, 2011, 22:17 GMT 

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Hi ANDODOUG & LILY ROSE ---- Thanks for your "Welcome Aboard". Yes, I'm an old Dylan fan. Was addicted to him as a teenager during the sixties, wearing down the grooves of his LPs as I played them over and over and over.... I also made a good effort to make sure my three daughters knew of his musical contributions to the world, and even today turn up the radio a little louder when I hear one of his songs start to play !

As for getting a boost from his use of a few of my Flick posts, who knows. BUT...I will certainly have some fun with it. I have already (today) ordered the Catalog on line from GAGOSIAN GALLERY in New York (and called them to make SURE they got my order). I will look over the 100 pages for any more of his art based on my posts, and make a special "BOB DYLAN LIKES MY OLD FLICKr SCANS!" entry. The caption will host all links to the original photographic works he used, and combine comments that show appreciation for his artistic labors, with tongue-in-cheek comments about his famous predilection to "appropriate" and re-work the labors of others....without giving source credits.

I have no plans to disparage him, nor will I pursue the issue beyond posting my few comments here, and what I might say on one Flickr post.

And....I will keep turning up the Radio when I hear one of his songs !

By the way, this is a fine forum you have here. Nice to met you all !

--- Okinawa Soba


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PostPosted: Fri September 23rd, 2011, 22:40 GMT 

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Must be a surreal feeling to wake up one morning and realize that Bob Dylan has been appropriating your work for his art.


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PostPosted: Fri September 23rd, 2011, 22:43 GMT 
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You're Awesome!!! I loved reading your posts. I loved your clarifications about the photos on your flickr being public domain. I had a big issue of the way this collection is being marketed as Dylan's visions as he traveled through Asia (on his computer...which they so nicely omitted).
Thanks for posting here.


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PostPosted: Fri September 23rd, 2011, 22:57 GMT 
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Okinawa Soba wrote:
What I have done for Flickr is re-crop portions of the originals (a tell-tale, invisible "tag" that Dylan's paintings follow, as he maintains my crops, and in no case includes more of the image content than I provide to everyone on Flickr)

You're in elite company, Soba - you'll go down in history with Henry Timrod and Junichi Saga!
http://writingguide.geneseo.edu/issues/plagiarism.html#dylan
http://www.poetryfoundation.org/article/178703


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PostPosted: Fri September 23rd, 2011, 23:23 GMT 

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Yes, it must be surreal to be you, and elite. I'm sorry I could not stop myself.


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PostPosted: Sat September 24th, 2011, 00:58 GMT 
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Welcome, Soba.

I'm impressed at the way you're dealing with this apparent appropriation and missing credit. You must be of two minds about it, if not more than two yet you haven't let the bitter taste overwhelm the other feelings.

I look forward to your 'reply'.

Thanks for the work on Flickr. Very nice choices and great writeups.


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