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PostPosted: Sat June 1st, 2019, 11:36 GMT 

Joined: Mon January 28th, 2008, 22:49 GMT
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Also, from conversation with Michael Chaiken (Dylan archivist) and Sean Latham (Dir. of Univ. of Tulsa's Institute for Bob Dylan studies). This information I know will be interesting to everyone here and it is information that I am permitted to share.

1. Confirmation that the archive does have the footage that Lanois's brother shot during the recording of Time Out of Mind. Much of the footage includes musicians like Jim Dickinson being pulled aside and interviewed, although there is footage of Dylan playing in the studio. I asked if you can see how the players were arranged and Chaiken said that you can. They are in different parts of the studio and baffled, as one can read in different accounts of the recording of TOOM.

2. There are 15 or so daily planner-style notebooks of Dylan from Woodstock, 1967-1968 period (they are not dated) with lots of effort for Dylan to write a Woody Guthrie-style outlaw/badman style ballad. This includes notes from the trial of Richard Speck that was going on at the time. One section has something like 10 verses that are written and never used. So, for those disturbed by Dylan's involvement with "Hurricane," there is an eye opener for you.

3. Whereas there is no studio recording of "I'm Cold" or related songs, they could turn up at some point on a demo or something.

4. (At least an early version) of a manuscript of lyrics to "I'm Cold" is in the archive, along with some other lyrics from the period. To tap down expectation, they were described to me as nothing that remarkable.

5. The original negative to Renaldo & Clara has been lost; therefore, it is not in the archive. However, it might turn up in the future. There is so much stuff that is coming in all the time and this will go on for years.

6. This sounds more like speculation on Chaiken's part, rather than knowledge from conversation with participants, but Chaiken thinks Renaldo & Clara would eventually [stress: no time table and also I should stress again this is musing on Chaiken's part] be released, but it is being held back because of the missing negative and in order to make a clear path for Scorsese's documentary (he said, so it doesn't "compete" with it). Of course, it could be released without the negative because they have very good quality dub prints.

7. I do not know if others have described the brief video footage of Dylan running through "Man in Me" with the singers and musicians (including David Bromberg in the background) during the New Morning sessions, but it is a highlight. Dylan is seated, laughing and smiling, wearing sunglasses, and bearded. It is terrific. He looks to be having a great time. There is an hour of this black & white video, only a few minutes were shown. It was shot with a proto-version of video that was not available at the consumer level in 1970. Much of the video shot with this Sony equipment from the period (non-Dylan related) does not survive due to demagnetization. However, the archive was able to get to this and digitize it. The only footage of Dylan recording an album that exists in the archive is for New Morning and, as I related in #1 above, Time Out of Mind.

I should note that most of the archive is not available yet because the process of digitalization takes so long and must be done. Also, all of this material, the whole archive, should be available to visitors at the Bob Dylan Center that is scheduled to open in 2021. It will only be direct access to manuscript documents and artifacts (as opposed to digital scans) that will be restricted, understandably, to scholars.

Both Latham and Chaiken are very nice men and appear to be doing their job very well, along with all of the others involved. Hats off to them.


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PostPosted: Sat June 1st, 2019, 14:26 GMT 

Joined: Mon January 14th, 2019, 18:24 GMT
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Great updates all! Sounds magical! I hope we get some official releases of this material in the near future. I sincerely regret not going.


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PostPosted: Sat June 1st, 2019, 15:04 GMT 

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I cannot wait till those JWH alt. takes circulate! It's only a matter of time, now!


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PostPosted: Sat June 1st, 2019, 15:35 GMT 
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Good news from Tulsa:

Another important note from the conference and per Michael Chaiken and the plans for the Bob Dylan Center: he was clear that if a person wanted to come and watch/listen to things in the audio/video archive, that would be definitely possible. For example, he said if you wanted to come sit through all 23 hours of 'Don't Look Back' out-take footage, or listen through some complete studio session or find something in their live archives, that will be possible. In other words, it won't just be set exhibits with slivers from the archives.

Not clear that everything will always be online, or certainly that it will all be available opening day, but for those of us drooling to get to the amazing things they have but without 'academic research credentials' it does sound like largely this will be a dream come true.

He was clear there would clearly be exhibits, they would change every 3-6 months, there will be things related to Dylan that are not centrally Dylan, etc.

I'll also say how nice it was to clearly discover Chaiken is a true fan, he knows and references nearly everything in Bob's history with ease and passion. He's not guarded with what he knows (while staying of course highly professional). We've got a good guy in there...


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PostPosted: Sat June 1st, 2019, 17:34 GMT 

Joined: Sat February 2nd, 2019, 17:26 GMT
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Very glad to see they seem to be supportive of normal folk being able to access all this at some point in the future.

Zero point in having an archive if 95 percent of fans can't make use of it and experience all the cool stuff.


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PostPosted: Sun June 2nd, 2019, 03:55 GMT 
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The lack of focus on this forum to this event is baffling to me. Can anyone explain?


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PostPosted: Sun June 2nd, 2019, 05:03 GMT 

Joined: Mon October 6th, 2008, 13:37 GMT
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We're all just desperately hoping for the 'don't worry folks, I secretly recorded the whole event' post.

I want to hear that take of Love Sick very badly.


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PostPosted: Sun June 2nd, 2019, 06:21 GMT 
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dpam wrote:
The lack of focus on this forum to this event is baffling to me. Can anyone explain?


What should we be discussing?


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PostPosted: Sun June 2nd, 2019, 11:19 GMT 
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Hats off to Hatmatter & DPam!
The reports are detailed and excellent.
Very thankful for you taking the time to share.


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PostPosted: Sun June 2nd, 2019, 12:19 GMT 

Joined: Mon January 28th, 2008, 22:49 GMT
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Still Go Barefoot wrote:
Hats off to Hatmatter & DPam!
The reports are detailed and excellent.
Very thankful for you taking the time to share.


Most welcome!


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PostPosted: Sun June 2nd, 2019, 12:58 GMT 
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Hatmatter wrote:
Also, from conversation with Michael Chaiken (Dylan archivist) and Sean Latham (Dir. of Univ. of Tulsa's Institute for Bob Dylan studies). This information I know will be interesting to everyone here and it is information that I am permitted to share.

1. Confirmation that the archive does have the footage that Lanois's brother shot during the recording of Time Out of Mind. Much of the footage includes musicians like Jim Dickinson being pulled aside and interviewed, although there is footage of Dylan playing in the studio. I asked if you can see how the players were arranged and Chaiken said that you can. They are in different parts of the studio and baffled, as one can read in different accounts of the recording of TOOM.

2. There are 15 or so daily planner-style notebooks of Dylan from Woodstock, 1967-1968 period (they are not dated) with lots of effort for Dylan to write a Woody Guthrie-style outlaw/badman style ballad. This includes notes from the trial of Richard Speck that was going on at the time. One section has something like 10 verses that are written and never used. So, for those disturbed by Dylan's involvement with "Hurricane," there is an eye opener for you.

3. Whereas there is no studio recording of "I'm Cold" or related songs, they could turn up at some point on a demo or something.

4. (At least an early version) of a manuscript of lyrics to "I'm Cold" is in the archive, along with some other lyrics from the period. To tap down expectation, they were described to me as nothing that remarkable.

5. The original negative to Renaldo & Clara has been lost; therefore, it is not in the archive. However, it might turn up in the future. There is so much stuff that is coming in all the time and this will go on for years.

6. This sounds more like speculation on Chaiken's part, rather than knowledge from conversation with participants, but Chaiken thinks Renaldo & Clara would eventually [stress: no time table and also I should stress again this is musing on Chaiken's part] be released, but it is being held back because of the missing negative and in order to make a clear path for Scorsese's documentary (he said, so it doesn't "compete" with it). Of course, it could be released without the negative because they have very good quality dub prints.

7. I do not know if others have described the brief video footage of Dylan running through "Man in Me" with the singers and musicians (including David Bromberg in the background) during the New Morning sessions, but it is a highlight. Dylan is seated, laughing and smiling, wearing sunglasses, and bearded. It is terrific. He looks to be having a great time. There is an hour of this black & white video, only a few minutes were shown. It was shot with a proto-version of video that was not available at the consumer level in 1970. Much of the video shot with this Sony equipment from the period (non-Dylan related) does not survive due to demagnetization. However, the archive was able to get to this and digitize it. The only footage of Dylan recording an album that exists in the archive is for New Morning and, as I related in #1 above, Time Out of Mind.

I should note that most of the archive is not available yet because the process of digitalization takes so long and must be done. Also, all of this material, the whole archive, should be available to visitors at the Bob Dylan Center that is scheduled to open in 2021. It will only be direct access to manuscript documents and artifacts (as opposed to digital scans) that will be restricted, understandably, to scholars.

Both Latham and Chaiken are very nice men and appear to be doing their job very well, along with all of the others involved. Hats off to them.

Thanks a lot for reporting!

Over on the Hoffman forum people who are at the Tulsa conference indicated that Dylan's people plan to release The Bootleg Series Vol. 15 later this year covering the years 1967–1969. Have you heard anything about that?


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PostPosted: Sun June 2nd, 2019, 13:17 GMT 

Joined: Fri July 18th, 2008, 16:22 GMT
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Anne Margaret Daniels was also taken with that alt Lstudio take of Love Sick

Check out @venetianblonde’s Tweet: https://twitter.com/venetianblonde/stat ... 64384?s=09


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PostPosted: Sun June 2nd, 2019, 23:39 GMT 

Joined: Mon January 28th, 2008, 22:49 GMT
Posts: 141
My Echo, My Shadow And Me wrote:
Hatmatter wrote:
Also, from conversation with Michael Chaiken (Dylan archivist) and Sean Latham (Dir. of Univ. of Tulsa's Institute for Bob Dylan studies). This information I know will be interesting to everyone here and it is information that I am permitted to share.

1. Confirmation that the archive does have the footage that Lanois's brother shot during the recording of Time Out of Mind. Much of the footage includes musicians like Jim Dickinson being pulled aside and interviewed, although there is footage of Dylan playing in the studio. I asked if you can see how the players were arranged and Chaiken said that you can. They are in different parts of the studio and baffled, as one can read in different accounts of the recording of TOOM.

2. There are 15 or so daily planner-style notebooks of Dylan from Woodstock, 1967-1968 period (they are not dated) with lots of effort for Dylan to write a Woody Guthrie-style outlaw/badman style ballad. This includes notes from the trial of Richard Speck that was going on at the time. One section has something like 10 verses that are written and never used. So, for those disturbed by Dylan's involvement with "Hurricane," there is an eye opener for you.

3. Whereas there is no studio recording of "I'm Cold" or related songs, they could turn up at some point on a demo or something.

4. (At least an early version) of a manuscript of lyrics to "I'm Cold" is in the archive, along with some other lyrics from the period. To tap down expectation, they were described to me as nothing that remarkable.

5. The original negative to Renaldo & Clara has been lost; therefore, it is not in the archive. However, it might turn up in the future. There is so much stuff that is coming in all the time and this will go on for years.

6. This sounds more like speculation on Chaiken's part, rather than knowledge from conversation with participants, but Chaiken thinks Renaldo & Clara would eventually [stress: no time table and also I should stress again this is musing on Chaiken's part] be released, but it is being held back because of the missing negative and in order to make a clear path for Scorsese's documentary (he said, so it doesn't "compete" with it). Of course, it could be released without the negative because they have very good quality dub prints.

7. I do not know if others have described the brief video footage of Dylan running through "Man in Me" with the singers and musicians (including David Bromberg in the background) during the New Morning sessions, but it is a highlight. Dylan is seated, laughing and smiling, wearing sunglasses, and bearded. It is terrific. He looks to be having a great time. There is an hour of this black & white video, only a few minutes were shown. It was shot with a proto-version of video that was not available at the consumer level in 1970. Much of the video shot with this Sony equipment from the period (non-Dylan related) does not survive due to demagnetization. However, the archive was able to get to this and digitize it. The only footage of Dylan recording an album that exists in the archive is for New Morning and, as I related in #1 above, Time Out of Mind.

I should note that most of the archive is not available yet because the process of digitalization takes so long and must be done. Also, all of this material, the whole archive, should be available to visitors at the Bob Dylan Center that is scheduled to open in 2021. It will only be direct access to manuscript documents and artifacts (as opposed to digital scans) that will be restricted, understandably, to scholars.

Both Latham and Chaiken are very nice men and appear to be doing their job very well, along with all of the others involved. Hats off to them.

Thanks a lot for reporting!

Over on the Hoffman forum people who are at the Tulsa conference indicated that Dylan's people plan to release The Bootleg Series Vol. 15 later this year covering the years 1967–1969. Have you heard anything about that?


I heard nothing about that. It must have been the result of a conversation with someone in contact with the Bob Dylan Music company, as the Archive and Institute for Bob Dylan Studies its not involved in any releases at this time.


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PostPosted: Mon June 3rd, 2019, 04:57 GMT 
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I don't recall any mention of a 67-69 Bootleg Series, but I did do an interview with Michael Chaiken, in which he talks about some of the treasures in the archive. It'll be part of the upcoming Tulsa episode for Definitely Dylan.


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PostPosted: Mon June 3rd, 2019, 06:21 GMT 
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Way to start the week. Thanks for all the reports, folks.
And yes, those TOOM outtakes should be released soon. Very


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PostPosted: Mon June 3rd, 2019, 13:09 GMT 
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Thanks for sharing all this information about this conference with us. Must have been a great event.
And alot of very interesting news!
Seems we will see alot of exiting stuff in the future.


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PostPosted: Tue June 4th, 2019, 10:08 GMT 
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Laura wrote:
I don't recall any mention of a 67-69 Bootleg Series, but I did do an interview with Michael Chaiken, in which he talks about some of the treasures in the archive. It'll be part of the upcoming Tulsa episode for Definitely Dylan.

Glad you made it!
Looking forward to the episode.


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PostPosted: Tue June 4th, 2019, 10:37 GMT 
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Excellent reading, thanks for posting. I do have reservation about this access for scholars though, seems unfair to fans who want to hear some stuff that they might not have access to, just seems like a way some folk will be able to show off on social media that they have heard/read/seen something that others haven't. I do also hope that a large amount becomes available to those who cant make it to Tulsa, be it a free to view online or something that can be bought if people want to see more.


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PostPosted: Tue June 4th, 2019, 17:20 GMT 

Joined: Mon March 7th, 2011, 21:11 GMT
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Location: Outside the Gates of Eden
Arkady wrote:
We're all just desperately hoping for the 'don't worry folks, I secretly recorded the whole event' post.

I want to hear that take of Love Sick very badly.



It was absolutely stunning.


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PostPosted: Tue June 4th, 2019, 20:34 GMT 

Joined: Mon January 28th, 2008, 22:49 GMT
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the_hurricane wrote:
Excellent reading, thanks for posting. I do have reservation about this access for scholars though, seems unfair to fans who want to hear some stuff that they might not have access to, just seems like a way some folk will be able to show off on social media that they have heard/read/seen something that others haven't. I do also hope that a large amount becomes available to those who cant make it to Tulsa, be it a free to view online or something that can be bought if people want to see more.


Hello the_hurricane.

According to Michael Chaiken, the Bob Dylan Center aims to, in the words of my post above, make the archive available to visitors at the Bob Dylan Center that is scheduled to open in 2021. Therefore, any non-scholar will be able to sit down and listen to all of the sessions for the recording of an album, or view manuscripts online, or view archived film footage. It is only direct access to manuscripts and artifacts (as opposed to digital scans) that will be restricted, understandably, to scholars. That is, though, as it should be. Very few need to handle the actual paper as opposed to viewing a scan. I certainly don't. Most archives are handled in this way.

I have not accessed the archive myself yet, but I have spoken with a number of people who have and each seemed forthcoming in conversation and serious in intent. I have not seen anyone showing off on social media. In fact, everyone I have spoken with who has actually done work in the archive is careful in their conversation so as to not violate the archive's rules.

As to whether or not people will have to visit Tulsa, Chaiken said there may be some joint efforts done with the Bob Dylan Music Company or Sony to do a Bob Dylan Center audio release, or books. Sean Latham, the director of the Institute for Bob Dylan Studies, has floated some ideas, such as a journal. This material would be commercially available to all. But, in the end, the specific intent of George Kaizer and others who made this archive happen was to create a draw for people to go to Tulsa. Also, this is how most archives work. Commercial projects (e.g. The Bootleg Series or the Performance series that has produced the 1966 and the forthcoming 1975 box set) have a different purpose than that of scholarly archives. For example, I worked for a summer in the library that holds the Ken Kesey archive. Scholars who needed to study unpublished Kesey manuscripts needed to travel there.

It would be great if everything could be made available to everybody, but there appears to be two forces that will work against that. The first is that some material will never clearly fit in a commercial release...so who will finance it? There are over 3000 recorded shows of the Never Ending tour alone, the digitization of that is an enormous effort. Where does the money come from to finance it? Neil Young appears to be trying to build a commercial archive resource online, but it is not a scholarly archive, which has other parameters and requirements.

The second force working against the distribution of Dylan's entire archive online is related to the first. The George Kaizer Foundation and the Univ. of Tulsa paid an estimated $20 million for the archive to be in Tulsa. Kaizer did it to help the revitalization of Tulsa and the Arts district specifically; the Univ. of Tulsa did it to build the reputation of the University. Both of these purposes align in wanting to draw people to Tulsa. They are the ones financing the enormous undertaking of this project.


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PostPosted: Wed June 5th, 2019, 03:29 GMT 
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Also clarified by Chaiken is the fact that The Archives have the tapes, but they don't hold any copyrights, Dylan's company still has those. So The Archive can't release anything unless the Co does it.

They also have to be very careful that their enabling access does not violate or interfere with the copyrights - so stuff from the archive can't circulate else they may have to clamp down on the kind of broad public access they plan to allow. Expect to get wanded on your way into the building...


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PostPosted: Wed June 5th, 2019, 03:32 GMT 
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Arkady wrote:
We're all just desperately hoping for the 'don't worry folks, I secretly recorded the whole event' post.

I want to hear that take of Love Sick very badly.


:wink:


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PostPosted: Wed June 5th, 2019, 08:46 GMT 
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Hatmatter wrote:
the_hurricane wrote:
Excellent reading, thanks for posting. I do have reservation about this access for scholars though, seems unfair to fans who want to hear some stuff that they might not have access to, just seems like a way some folk will be able to show off on social media that they have heard/read/seen something that others haven't. I do also hope that a large amount becomes available to those who cant make it to Tulsa, be it a free to view online or something that can be bought if people want to see more.


Hello the_hurricane.

According to Michael Chaiken, the Bob Dylan Center aims to, in the words of my post above, make the archive available to visitors at the Bob Dylan Center that is scheduled to open in 2021. Therefore, any non-scholar will be able to sit down and listen to all of the sessions for the recording of an album, or view manuscripts online, or view archived film footage. It is only direct access to manuscripts and artifacts (as opposed to digital scans) that will be restricted, understandably, to scholars. That is, though, as it should be. Very few need to handle the actual paper as opposed to viewing a scan. I certainly don't. Most archives are handled in this way.

I have not accessed the archive myself yet, but I have spoken with a number of people who have and each seemed forthcoming in conversation and serious in intent. I have not seen anyone showing off on social media. In fact, everyone I have spoken with who has actually done work in the archive is careful in their conversation so as to not violate the archive's rules.

As to whether or not people will have to visit Tulsa, Chaiken said there may be some joint efforts done with the Bob Dylan Music Company or Sony to do a Bob Dylan Center audio release, or books. Sean Latham, the director of the Institute for Bob Dylan Studies, has floated some ideas, such as a journal. This material would be commercially available to all. But, in the end, the specific intent of George Kaizer and others who made this archive happen was to create a draw for people to go to Tulsa. Also, this is how most archives work. Commercial projects (e.g. The Bootleg Series or the Performance series that has produced the 1966 and the forthcoming 1975 box set) have a different purpose than that of scholarly archives. For example, I worked for a summer in the library that holds the Ken Kesey archive. Scholars who needed to study unpublished Kesey manuscripts needed to travel there.

It would be great if everything could be made available to everybody, but there appears to be two forces that will work against that. The first is that some material will never clearly fit in a commercial release...so who will finance it? There are over 3000 recorded shows of the Never Ending tour alone, the digitization of that is an enormous effort. Where does the money come from to finance it? Neil Young appears to be trying to build a commercial archive resource online, but it is not a scholarly archive, which has other parameters and requirements.

The second force working against the distribution of Dylan's entire archive online is related to the first. The George Kaizer Foundation and the Univ. of Tulsa paid an estimated $20 million for the archive to be in Tulsa. Kaizer did it to help the revitalization of Tulsa and the Arts district specifically; the Univ. of Tulsa did it to build the reputation of the University. Both of these purposes align in wanting to draw people to Tulsa. They are the ones financing the enormous undertaking of this project.


Thanks for your very well worded response. My original comment about people online bragging they have Bob stuff that others don't was not intended to be a comment about the people working at the archive it was more a comment about the wider community of fans we have seen on social media over the years (the second post of this thread sums up my feels towards them viewtopic.php?f=6&t=96165).

The second point I am very happy with that answer I had pervious understanding that only some of the stuff would be available for "the paying public" and others stuff "for scholars" I have absolutely no qualms with digital copies being available to view for your man on the street and I wholeheartedly agree with it.

I would like to add any reservations I had about the archive have been swept away in one post.


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PostPosted: Wed June 5th, 2019, 10:29 GMT 

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I think it is natural for folk who were not there to feel a bit resentful, and for those who were to enthuse about something brilliant they saw. It's not necessarily bragging (obviouly some people with issues will brag, but I mean in general). Both responses are just human nature. Combined, they can create an uncomfortable atmosphere. I believe this explains the earlier question asking why it was not being discussed more.

I had written something, but deleted it as I thought it would just infuriate those who had not seen it. I couldn't resist the Love Sick comment above, especially as it had already been discussed.

It's hugely expensive and difficult to get to from the UK. Half my week was in airports or stranded without luggage or sleep. That's part of the reason they are putting thngs there, to make people feel it is all worth it. The city was charming, the folk very proud of their Guthrie and American Indian exhibits and will be over the Bob one when it fully opens, too. We even had a big Pride march through the Bible Belt, church-filled streets.


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PostPosted: Wed June 5th, 2019, 15:45 GMT 
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homerthes wrote:
I think it is natural for folk who were not there to feel a bit resentful, and for those who were to enthuse about something brilliant they saw. It's not necessarily bragging (obviouly some people with issues will brag, but I mean in general). Both responses are just human nature. Combined, they can create an uncomfortable atmosphere. I believe this explains the earlier question asking why it was not being discussed more.

I had written something, but deleted it as I thought it would just infuriate those who had not seen it. I couldn't resist the Love Sick comment above, especially as it had already been discussed.

It's hugely expensive and difficult to get to from the UK. Half my week was in airports or stranded without luggage or sleep. That's part of the reason they are putting thngs there, to make people feel it is all worth it. The city was charming, the folk very proud of their Guthrie and American Indian exhibits and will be over the Bob one when it fully opens, too. We even had a big Pride march through the Bible Belt, church-filled streets.


I wouldn't say I am resentful and I would encourage anyone who has been there to put us much details as possible online for people who weren't there. However you are deluded if you think that there are not people on some social media platforms (and I don't mean this site) I am highlighting twitter and fb mostly with people who have more so in their own collection some rare bob stuff and brag constantly but wont share it. I do acknowledge that there may be copyright issues at times but there are fair amount of folk out there who just like to say what they have and make it out to be bobs greatest every performance.

I do hope that whatever you where going to post you do, and I cant wait to go to Tulsa when it opens.


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